Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

I see.
What is your answer then to your question of who was under covenant when Jesus walked the Earth? I assume you mean before Jesus death.

And does this figure into it? that there were people from the northern kingdom living in Judah?
2 Chronicles 15: 9. And he got together all Judah and Benjamin and those of Ephraim and Manasseh and Simeon who were living with them; for numbers of them came to him out of Israel when they saw that the Lord his God was with him.

I was thinking of the tenets of Reformed Theology and they remind me of a book I read years ago, and liked very much called "Victory In Christ" by Charles G Trumbull. Ever heard of that one?

Interesting diaog, but you need to clarify a bit about the first few decades of the "New Testament" churches where they had no New Testament and no churches.

Hey Dan,

Yep before His crucifixion.

God had divorced those tribes from the Northern Kingdom. It is important to note that while people who live in the United States are Us Citizens, They are also state Residents and county residents and sometimes residents of a municipality. Just like that there is a Civil identity and a Spiritual identity.

Most of us identify spiritually as aliens or pilgrims or strangers in a strange land;

1Pe 2:9-12 KJV But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (11) Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

God terminated His covenant with the Northern Kingdom -House of Israel. If you live in a country where there is civil war, social unrest, crime and murder, lawlessness, a nation under a curse or judgement for "whatever" sins usually bring this form of civil unrest. Then let's say you decide to leave and go to a nation where the Spirit of God is moving throughout the nation and the people are at rest serving God and essentially walking "In Christ". Big change huh!? Does that mean that those individuals are not under covenant or did it mean that the Southern Kingdom of the House of Judah were and by default of their civil address they were?

Simeon was prophesied to be sifted throughout the 12 tribes, so that was typical throughout time.
Gen 49:7 NIV Cursed be their anger, so fierce, and their fury, so cruel! I will scatter them in Jacob and disperse them in Israel.

Not sure where we were going with all this but I'm just in for a few and will look back at this again. I know I have been slow in getting back to this. Trying to catch up after a couple days of rain and now have dry weather to get some things done.

Be well

SG

I heard a great analogy a week or so ago that I have to share that I can't take credit for.

Three people - on three different days - suddenly find themselves sick, so they go to the doctor to receive medicine for their illnesses...

...but the doc doesn't give anyone medicine, instead, he gives a prescription; a written tablet listing:

- Patient's name...
- The sickness...
- The medicine need...
- All of the instructions to follow to properly take the medicine.


Person A pours over the instructions, reading them over and over and over again. Studying them. Looking healing of his sickness in its words, so much so he can recite the instructions with his eyes closed...but he never gets healed because it's only the promise of healing. Something's missing so he remains sick. The instructions alone can't heal him.

They eventually die.

-----

Person B goes to the pharmacist and using the written tablet received his medicine. The pharmacist takes the tablet and STAPLES the written tablet to the bottle VERIFYING the medicine and AUTHORIZING the patient who can receive it. The written tablet is REQUIRED to verify the medicine, otherwise, it's not given to the patient.

...Elated that they will be healed of their sickness, they rush home and immediately consume all of the medicine at once without following any of the instructions on the written tablet, with terrible consequences. Other side effects/issues manifest and the person starts suffering even more.

They eventually die.

-----

Person C reads over the tablet to understand the instructions, and then goes to the pharmacist to receive the medicine. The pharmacist takes the tablet and STAPLES the written tablet to the bottle VERIFYING the medicine and AUTHORIZING the patient who can receive it. The written tablet is REQUIRED to verify the medicine, otherwise, it's not given to the patient.

...Elated that they'll be healed of their sickness, they rush home and immediately begin pouring over the instructions to make sure they take the medicine correctly. Armed with life-saving medicine, they follow the instructions AND take the medicine exactly as prescribed.

They are healed of their sickness and live.

----

Person A = The Pharisees of the 1st century
Person B = The modern Christian of this century
Person C = The saints of Revelation 14:12

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God [instructions], and the faith of Jesus [medicine]."

I don't know of anyone who advises completely disregarding God's written instructions.

The questions come relating to which ones are to be followed by Christians today and how they are to be fulfilled.

Deuteronomy 22: 11. You shall not wear a mixed stuff, wool and linen together.

Is this for today? Does it relate to Cotton and polyester blends?

It depends. Not even all of Israel had to follow all of the written instructions even in "O.T." time. It depended on their individual situations.


The guy went onto to continue the analogy...

----

The doctor (ful)FILLS the written prescription in medicine form but doesn't discard the written prescription, because receiving life-saving medicine without proper instruction will eventually cause the patient to become worse off than when they first receive the live-saving medicine.

----End----

I thought it was a great analogy. To your question; generally speaking, if we take this analogy and extrapolate it. Here's what I see it saying...

Who's the patient? The written tablet has the name of the patient on it. Anyone else it's not promised to doesn't receive the written instructions OR the medicine. And anyone who attempts to take either for themselves - who they weren't promised to - is a thief and a liar (John 10:1).

In our case, the patient is "Israel". Only Israel was promised The Medicine (Matthew 15:26). Anyone who isn't "Israel" is a liar and a thief of the medicine.

This is why Paul says the wild olive branches are GRAFTED INTO the root of Israel (Romans 11:24). There's only one patient given the written prescription and promised of the medicine (Deut 18:18; Romans 11:29). Only Israel was given the Torah and the promise of Christ (Matthew 1:21; Daniel 9:24; John 11:50).

...Then if this is the case, the answer to your question naturally follows the question below...

Was Deuteronomy 22:11's instructions - and other instructions like seafood restrictions, beard shaving rule, etc - given to the patient, "Israel"? The answer is "yes". Is Israel required to obey the instructions? "Yes". Are the instructions useful without Christ? Answer: No more than a prescription without its fulfilled medicine is.


So I think maybe the real question to explore is, are gentile believers actually a separate entity outside of Israel called the "church" as many believe, or are they grafted into the commonwealth of Israel through Christ? Because I think we all agree at least as far as Israel is concerned that they must obey the covenant instructions, depending on their individual situations as it's always been.

Thats not what Moses said, And in case people did not believe him, Paul backs him up in Gal 3

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.

Context is key.

There were instructions to visit Jerusalem 3 times a year for sacrifice. This instruction was given to all Israel, but was this for everyone in Israel?

In which situations was this instruction not required to be followed?

For those whose situation it didn't apply to, were they cursed for not following it?

I heard a great analogy a week or so ago that I have to share that I can't take credit for.

Three people - on three different days - suddenly find themselves sick, so they go to the doctor to receive medicine for their illnesses...

...but the doc doesn't give anyone medicine, instead, he gives a prescription; a written tablet listing:

- Patient's name...
- The sickness...
- The medicine need...
- All of the instructions to follow to properly take the medicine.


Person A pours over the instructions, reading them over and over and over again. Studying them. Looking healing of his sickness in its words, so much so he can recite the instructions with his eyes closed...but he never gets healed because it's only the promise of healing. Something's missing so he remains sick. The instructions alone can't heal him.

They eventually die.

-----

Person B goes to the pharmacist and using the written tablet received his medicine. The pharmacist takes the tablet and STAPLES the written tablet to the bottle VERIFYING the medicine and AUTHORIZING the patient who can receive it. The written tablet is REQUIRED to verify the medicine, otherwise, it's not given to the patient.

...Elated that they will be healed of their sickness, they rush home and immediately consume all of the medicine at once without following any of the instructions on the written tablet, with terrible consequences. Other side effects/issues manifest and the person starts suffering even more.

They eventually die.

-----

Person C reads over the tablet to understand the instructions, and then goes to the pharmacist to receive the medicine. The pharmacist takes the tablet and STAPLES the written tablet to the bottle VERIFYING the medicine and AUTHORIZING the patient who can receive it. The written tablet is REQUIRED to verify the medicine, otherwise, it's not given to the patient.

...Elated that they'll be healed of their sickness, they rush home and immediately begin pouring over the instructions to make sure they take the medicine correctly. Armed with life-saving medicine, they follow the instructions AND take the medicine exactly as prescribed.

They are healed of their sickness and live.

----

Person A = The Pharisees of the 1st century
Person B = The modern Christian of this century
Person C = The saints of Revelation 14:12

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God [instructions], and the faith of Jesus [medicine]."

Context is key. But scripture is scripture

Anyone who did not obey was under a curse. That goes for everyone. There are no exceptions...

The fact that God still blessed them even though they could not keep the law shows his grace. But it does not negate their guilt

The just shall live by faith

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe <---Be nor removed from the simplicity that is found in Christ

Incorrect, sir.

The instructions say to "be CAREFUL to obey..." Israel must be careful in what was specifically instructed.

Hi DeighAnn,
I haven't heard from you in a while.
Deuteronomy 22: 28. If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29. then the man who lay with her shall give to the lady's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

What are your feelings about the above passage? It looks like if the victim is a virgin who is not engaged, then the rapist doesn't get stoned. I see too that they have to be discovered. Maybe in that culture the testimony of the woman wasn't considered valid?

In your post above you talk about being led by the spirit. Do you mean that in some cases we would set aside the letter of the law and go with the thrust of it? The main idea?

If so I could definitely go with that. Use the law as a general guideline, but not think of yourself as being bound by the letter of it.

And I would think too that the spirit might lead one person to keep a particular law differently than another person. One person is led to put blue tassels on their jacket, another person is not.

I don't know of anyone who advises completely disregarding God's written instructions.

The questions come relating to which ones are to be followed by Christians today and how they are to be fulfilled.

Deuteronomy 22: 11. You shall not wear a mixed stuff, wool and linen together.

Is this for today? Does it relate to Cotton and polyester blends?

Habbakuk 1:3-4,12-17; 2:5
3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.

4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

14 And makest men as the fishes of the sea, as the creeping things, that have no ruler over them?

15 They take up all of them with the angle, they catch them in their net, and gather them in their drag: therefore they rejoice and are glad.

16 Therefore they sacrifice unto their net, and burn incense unto their drag; because by them their portion is fat, and their meat plenteous.

17 Shall they therefore empty their net, and not spare continually to slay the nations?


2:1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.

2 And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:


Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Habbakuk 1:3-4,12-17; 2:5
3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.

4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

14 And makest men as the fishes of the sea, as the creeping things, that have no ruler over them?

15 They take up all of them with the angle, they catch them in their net, and gather them in their drag: therefore they rejoice and are glad.

16 Therefore they sacrifice unto their net, and burn incense unto their drag; because by them their portion is fat, and their meat plenteous.

17 Shall they therefore empty their net, and not spare continually to slay the nations?


2:1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.

2 And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:


Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The Father who thought it was so important, came down to give it to Moses.

Saw it corrupted by man, so in an effort for us to get the Spirit of if, and to KNOW the importance of it, as The Son, wrote it in our hearts and minds.

And when He left, sent the Comforter to help us walk this flesh life in obedience to it.

The only way for a Christian to deny the law written upon the heart and mind, is a TO NOT BE A CHRIST MAN.
The will of our fathers we will do.

But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God


Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them for this is the law and the prophets.
What is contained in the 2 commandments? To deny them is to deny Christ.

Who denies Christ?
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.
If you ARE NOT SERVING GOD, WHO ARE YOU SERVING?


Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

I am responsible for BECOMING a better, more like Christ person. With the help of the Holy Spirit I put this flesh in obedience, I want God to count on me when I am in my celestial body to reign with Christ for the Lords Day.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that He feared;

Hebrews 5:8 Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which he suffered
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

If God, the Son, while in the flesh learned obedience, and became the author unto them that obey, I thank God daily for the Comforter, the Holy Spirit that I depend on to keep me on that path, who without, I would not stand a chance. For me the Holy Spirit is "this little souls, this little creation of Gods' Guide, but the work is all mine as I progress toward perfection hopefully, knowing full good and well that even doing my absolute best, compared to the righteousness I will be meeting, it is all just filthy rags. But you know what? I am going to have a lot of filthy rags. As many as I can. Worst thing gonna happen is they all get tossed in the trash as I walk on past. But what if, and I can hope, those filthy rags get washed? What if???

I rejoice and Praise the Lord. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Satan, most definitely not here in person, but his spirit walks among us. The spiritual war is a lot more intense than I ever gave it credit for, but I don't anymore.

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

If you wanted to show what great faith some of the men of YHVH demonstrated, you picked a great book to do it. Almighty was about to punish His people with a nation even more wicked! Hab couldn't understand why...but this is what he said. Just to take time and let these words sink in....very humbling indeed.
Hab 3:
17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:

18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

19 The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.