Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

If you think you can lose salvation. You believe you MUST do some sort of work to maintain your salvation

It’s not an osas vs nosas issue. It’s a issue of do you believe gods promises or do you not

I am glad a I read your second before answering the first.

It's always good to try and read the thread intent of posts.

To be honest I am confused.

At that time you were not a Christian.
Yet you say you actually followed OSAS at the time.
So my assumption is that you had exposure to this doctrine.
If so you must have heard it from somewhere.
If that's the case then I assume it was in a church that teaches this doctrine.

If that's the case then I would be totally shocked if they taught what you have accused those who believe in this doctrine that we look down in disgust at the poor guy referred to.

Now if my assumption is correct that you were in a church that taught that then it's abhorrent.

But if you were in a church that taught OSAS but also taught the gospel of Jesus then I am at a loss why you would not tell this guy the gospel.

Because you seem to say above that you followed OSAS which I assume was at the same time.

If you were not and had no knowledge why would you be upset at the lady's thoughts towards this guy?

In reality you would have looked at him in the same way?

But if you were in a church that taught OSAS but also taught the gospel of Jesus then I am at a loss why you would not tell this guy the gospel.

For God so loved the world.
Jesus walked with outcasts, the downtrodden, the considered filth of society.

Why do you say that you were not a Christian because nothing in your life reflected that?

If we look for a marker to being a Christian what is it?
Is it our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus.
A faith that seeks to be like him?

Or is it one that says I must work harder.
When we struggle with a particular sin habit, mess up in order to be saved.

God looks at the heart.
One that seeks after him, to be like him.

Very interesting ... subjective experience is not how we determine biblical truth.

And in a sense neither will I must stop sinning or working harder to be saved.
That will not free us either.

A heart that seeks after God will save us, through our saviour Jesus.

Are you saying you are sinlessly perfect now that you ditched "OSAS doctrine"? (meaning, 100% of the time you look exactly like Jesus, every second of every day?) What need of you, then, to have the following be true for/of/about you? :

"Who is the one condemning? For it is Christ Jesus, the one having died, now rather having been raised up, who is also at the right hand of God, and who is interceding for us." - Romans 8:34

"wherefore also He is able to save to the uttermost those drawing near to God through [/by means of] Him [/Jesus], always living for to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:25

...we can just "ditch" this present ministry of the ascended/exalted Lord Jesus Christ? because you have no need of Him? you're sinlessly perfect now? (and all it took was "ditching the OSAS doctrine"?!? Preach!)

If fear of punishment was the only way you were able to modify your behavior, because love alone wasn't enough, then maybe we should question if you're even saved now.

Or maybe it's not by works.

Chester, if you are born again you are filled with the Holy Spirit. He says He will NEVER leave nor forsake you. He is IN you and you in HIM.

So how exactly, once you have been born again from above, given a NEW heart, and made a NEW creation, can you become unborn again, no longer His child, and He leaves and forsakes you, and you are lost?

Correct. Part of the problem in BDF is that we turn away from talking about issues and turn towards talking about individuals.

Then in the
It didnt matter how much I was told how "secure" I was in OSAS I never felt secure. Because I would open the bible and it would tell me I wasn't. My friends still fellowshiped with me even though I was living a totally sinful lifestyle, but they just felt sorry for me all the time. I had faith according to OSAS faith alone. Justification through Christ alone. I prayed, read my bible all the time. But I still couldn't be free from my sins, I was a drunk, smoking fornicater, who occasionally used drugs as well, listened to angry rap music that had so much sin in them. I swore all the time, wore provocative clothing. But I had Faith in God, went to church all the time, fellowshiped all the time, prayed all the time. I cried out to God for my sins to forgive me, but my sins were destroying me and I was in a black hole of depression with no way out. I started to become upset asking God "why aren't I "changing" God, the holy spirit is In me. I was crying all the time for the holy spirit to change me but "nothing happened"

Years and years passed I went into darkness of depression because of not being able to change.

My mental health was failing as well.

Then my mum looked on a site evangelical outreach.org. she went on there because my dad followed OSAS and turned away because of his drug addiction and hard heart toward God. My mum was wondering is my husband a Christian while using drugs. He had the faith that OSAS refers too? He went to church, fellowshiped.
Then he turned from God totally.

Then we found out evangelical outreach.org that a believer can fall away from the faith.
My dad came back to God on his death bed 3 months ago. He had brain damage and cancer, but was able to say the whole sinners repentance prayer, when he had trouble speaking.

So now I dont follow OSAS I have peace in my heart and a better relationship with God. My mental health is also alot better than It was a couple of years ago. No condemnation when I open my bible and I am now trying my hardest to resist sin, I feel like God approves of me. Also there are no horrible consequences in my life for my sins at the moment, since I am obeying the bible. So there is more peace in my life.

Masterfully written! I agree completely!

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Will the Holy Spirit always be with/in the believer? Absolutely!
Will the Holy Spirit live in an unbeliever? Never!

But that seems to be becoming the norm today.

Notice the conditional tense "may" I did not say "will".


Romans 6:1? Some people do sin so that grace may abound and some have fallen into the error of balaam.

Everyone has different struggles and when I say some "may" have less grace than others. Rm 2:12-16 "may" have a factor.

If someone is unaware something is sin there is more grace for that than someone who knows vaguely what they are doing and thinks it might be a sin and feels conviction versus someone that knows precisely that it is sin and chooses to do so anyway in willful rebellion. All VERY different.

Also consider the punishment of the serpent, Eve, and Adam. How each was unique.

Another scripture that appears to be higher standard/less grace is what Jesus said about causing one of the little ones to stumble. Powerful language. A large millstone tied around my neck and drowned in the depths of the sea?!? Seemingly this is a bigger deal.

You also have the prodigal son and the other son. Interesting passage to meditate on in this regard.

Abuse of grace or treating grace as a license should never be. Am I inclined to say that anyone that does is a child of the devil? Not unequivocally. That's not in my purview.

Tis a long topic. The only reason I replied really is because you misquoted my post

Peace.

Jesus says the truth - knowing it - is how to be set free.

Wow her view totally changed after reading my testimony, I am glad I had an impact

Ah very interesting and I can relate to this but from a different perspective.

I believe in OSAS, not the greasy grace of OSAS theology.

I myself had a severe gambling problem.
A little background.
Very severe childhood.
Ancestry Muslim.
My mum fell pregnant with me out of marriage.
Was meant to be aborted.
She was on the table but at the last moment said no.
She was rejected by her family.
As a result she rejected me.
Threw me out when I was 14.
I suffered for 14 years.
Rejection, beatings.
She never told me she loved me.
Only when she was drunk, she would ask me if I loved her.
At times I could not, then she would beat me.

Anyway she threw me out and I was fostered by a Christian family.
I spent the next 5 years being sexually abused by foster dad.
I could go on but I won't. It's deep.
My gambling problem (btw a family and ancestry problem) lasted for 35 years.

Before and after the events above.

I called out to God for that last 20 years for release.
I even gambled and did not know I was.
Sat at my desk and an hour later I had stuffed thousands into a fruit machine.
I even poured oil over the doors of the gambling est.
I used to wake up every morning at 4.
Fear and guilt.
I even asked God to kill me.
I tried to kill myself.
But it did not happen.
The shocking thing is that I had a wife and 4 kids at the time (still have them)

Mate I just wanted to die. I knew God would take care of my family.
If I died in this state then I knew where I would go.
I was living in hell on this earth, so why not go there.
Afterall I couldn't be a real Christian given what I was doing.

Praise God, he delivered me from this.

He had to deal with the cause of affect.
He had to deal with issues that caused my gambling problem.
Healing of hurt, rejection, sexual abuser.
He dealt with that, but I had to cooperate with his dealing with it.

When I did he did.
It was amazing.
I woke up one morning and have never gambled since.
But it was the process of dealing with the cause.

And I'm telling you as a OSAS believer.

So you see it works both ways.

Truly I say to you a lot of OSAS do have a fire for God.
You discredit people like me and others.

I now walk with people in my church who are going through what I have.

Afterall what use would I be if I hadn't.

Sin management is not the issue.
Working harder is not the issue.

The issue is why we think like that.
It's the cause of the affect.

Chester is a he.

Basically A person who has the same view of the bible as you have then. You don't believe in salvation loss.