PRE- MID- POST TRIBULATION.... JESUS RETURN TO EARTH FOR HIS BRIDE!

Nope. I never even heard of the term split rapture until today.
Think Church Saints vs tribulation Saints.
Nobody gets left behind. Quite impossible.

You just contradicted yourself......saints are church members and Identified with churches........

The dead and we which are in Christ is indicative of ALL THE SAVED..........

And you said THE WORD KEEP MEANS REMOVE.....do you disagree it is applied unto the faithful now?

What about the unfaithful...?? <--you are still tap dancing around this

BTW the doctrine of imminency is totally bombproof. Jesus warned constantly to keep watch for we do not know the day or the hour.

False again.......he said day nor hour....very specific......and NUMEROUS events listed that must happen 1st.....and you STILL did not answer the question....speaks volumes

False again.......he said day nor hour....very specific......and NUMEROUS events listed that must happen 1st.....and you STILL did not answer the question....speaks volumes

And you determine who is sinning and who is not?

Zero events mark the coming of the Rapture. Once the allotment is filled its rapture time.
Tons of events revealed to mark the Second Coming.....to Israel. The first is the revealing of the man of sin.

One cannot teach Jesus is coming before the trumpets ...

No split rapture. All true believers are saved from the hour of wrath.
Israel goes thru the time of testing and some survive. Then they call upon Jesus and repent. Jesus comes and destroys Israels enemies. Millennium begins.

This is true concerning the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels. But long before the trumpets He comes FOR His saints.

Now for my reply on this particular thread , in the book of revelation we are shown unmistakably , without doubt the identity of Israel , the Angel of the Lord gives a order in chapter 7 verse 3 -4 , it is stated the following...

Greetings Vic1980!

Forgive me for jumping in here Vic and Nehemiah, but I'm sure that your answer will be along the same lines.

The answer to your question would be that, none of the seals have yet been opened. In Rev.1:19, John is told to write:

What you have seen = Everything listed from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches and represents the entire church period

What will take place later = What takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

The "what is now," that is, the end of the church period is completed in Rev.4:1 when John hears that voice (Jesus) that sounds like a trumpet saying, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," which is synonymous with the "what must take place later." Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to when the church is caught up.

In addition, the first seal rider on the white horse represents the revealing of the antichrist. The first seal rider on the white horse is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-13 who is the Lord. Since we have not yet seen the revealing of the antichrist, then the first seal could not have possibly been opened yet. And since the seals, trumpets and bowls take place in chronological order, then neither could any of the other seals have been opened.

The events of wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will be like nothing that has ever taken place on the earth. To be clear, they will not be passive events which will come and go with the world continuing on as usual, but will have the worlds complete attention, bringing about the end of the age. For by the time they have been completed, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled, which will all take place in a seven year period. There are only two places that give fatality percentages, one being at the 4th seal and the other at the 6th trumpet, which is a fourth and a third respectively. That would be well over half the earths population with just those two and that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the seven bowl judgments. Jesus described the outcome of God's wrath saying that If those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved, i.e. no one on earth would be left alive.

Another reason that we cannot be in the seals, is because they are apart of God's coming wrath. Since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then God's wrath no longer rests upon us and the Lord will appear and gather all believers from the earth prior to that first seal being opened (see Rom.5:9, 1 Thess.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10)

Regarding that time of Wrath, Dan.2:31-45 describes it figuratively using Nebuchadnezzar's statue, which represents the previous Gentile kingdoms, with that future last ten-toed kingdom made of partly iron and baked clay. The Rock cut of the mountain without human hands (Jesus) falls on the feet of the statue (seals, trumpets and bowls) and smashes it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and blown away without leaving a trace. Then the Rock (Jesus) becomes a huge mountain (kingdom) and fills the entire earth. This is referring to Jesus thousand year reign on this present earth.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place as a woman having birth pains, which start off far apart and get closer together and more intense as they go.

The fact that the church has not yet been removed from the earth, demonstrates that the first seal has not yet been opened.

Deut 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.


Oops looks like saints came with Him to give the law. Are these also secret raptured believers?

After the pretrib rapture those left behind are killed by ac.
They did not make the rapture.
Ask yourself "why did they need their robes washed?"
They had a slight problem. Dirty robes.
They ALL NEEDED washed robes.
You only establised there are martyrs.
We both believe that.
5 foolish left behind are all martyred who refuse the mark.

So there you have another problem. You imagine the main body escaping martyrdom.
Nope

Nope, I am sorry you think there can be new converts in the 7 years that are so strong in the Lord that they can be martyred. God is fully able to protect His people that scripture points out while the tribulation in ongoing.

I am historic premillennialism all the way. But I won't quite buy into chiliasm because I see a physical Israel under a second part of the Abrahamic Covenant. Mind you, Christ is the only way to salvation; so we are not talking about salvation when Israel will be restored physically. That will be possible and even probable once everything is out in the open. That still takes place one by one in each believer's life. Here is a little picture I have of Christ's return:

Mark 13:37 “And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”

1 Thess. 5:2-6 “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”

When Christ comes back the very next time, He will encircle the earth while the asleep in Christ will rise and join Him. 1 Thess. 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." You see, we meet in the air, then we are ever with the Lord; not ever in the air.

Some claim Jesus is coming for a secret rapture, and He will be coming into only the air. If Jesus comes into the atmosphere, that is still "a coming." There is no secret rapture there are saints dying all during the tribulation.

Now a couple references as to where are reign with Christ will be:
Rev. 5:10 “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

Rev. 20:6 “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

It doesn't say we will stay in the air or heaven. When Christ comes back the next time, He will stay. He will circle the globe for the rapture then set His feet on the Mount of Olives. Fulfilling this prophecy:

Acts 1:10, 11 "And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Here is a chart of each view: (the light blue is historic premillennialism)

There is no washing of robes mentioned in the scripture i provided.. They where given white robes.. Nothing about them being washed at all..



Have all Christians been executed as martyrs? No thousands upon thousands of Christians have lead normal lives and died in standard ways other then from persecution.. I have no idea why you would think that i believe that all Christians die of martyrdom.. The rapture scriptures declare that when Jesus returns there will be Christians still alive on earth and they will be caught up and transformed in a twinkling of an eye.. So of course i do not believe all Christians will die during the tribulation that the body will be subjected to by followers of the anti-christ during the times before the return of Jesus..