Twinkling of an eye

Some people consider the second half of the [7-yr] trib to be the "tribulation of Satan" (Ahwatukee is addressing [member] "Gift1982's" comment using that phrase), based on Rev12:9,12,13-14 (where 1260 days is remaining).

However, even at the BEGINNING of the whole time period, scripture says, "whose coming [/advent/arrival/presence/parousia] is after the working of Satan..." ...(and... 2Th2:7b-8a sounds very similar to the wording of Lam2:3-4)... which "coming" (of the "man of sin") [2Th2:9a (comp Dan9:27a(26)] is at the START of the 7-yr trib, not its middle... nor its end.

Exactly!

I was responding to Gift1982 because he, like many others, misinterprets parts of the tribulation period as being "Satan's tribulation." People usually claim this in order to support their belief that the first six seals as not being God's wrath, but "Satan's tribulation." They do this in an attempt to prove that the church will be on the earth during the first six seals .

However, the truth regarding this is that the Lamb (Jesus), is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgments. It demonstrates that Jesus is the One who is initiating God's wrath by opening the seals. Consequently, all of the events listed in the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up the wrath of God.

It's God's tribulation and Satan, the beast and the false prophet are all apart of it.

Good day Wall,

There are two events which will take place, which are erroneously interpreted as being the same event:

The appearing of the Lord = Jesus appearing in the atmosphere to gather the church and take them back to heaven

The second coming = Jesus physically returning to the earth to end the age and to establish His millennial kingdom

Below is the Lord's promise to the disciples and all believer as found in John 14:1-3:

In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

It is first important to understand where the Father's house is, because this is where Jesus went to prepare places for all believers. So, where did Jesus go?

After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.

"After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

"Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us."

So, getting back to John 14:1-13, we can see from the scriptures listed above that Jesus ascended into heaven, which is where Jesus said He was going to prepare rooms for us.

So that you also may be where I am

Jesus' promise then is that there were many rooms in His Father's house, which as have we have seen can only be referring to heaven. Since then, Jesus has prepared places for us and when the time is right, He said, "I will come back," i.e. to get all believers, so that we may also be where He is, which again would be in the Father's house in heaven.

The scripture above is in no way making reference to the millennial kingdom which will take place here on earth.

Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The word Keep from the Greek.....show me where it says REMOVE......You guys can forget using this verse to prove some imminent return where we go POOF and everyone wonders where we went.....this verse and the word KEEP does not INDICATE that scenario......

téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

The way I see it, is... we should understand a few things about that verse (not merely one word extracted from the verse):

1) understand just what "[b/c u hv kept] 'the word of the hypomones [G5281] of Me'" is referring to

2) understand that it's not just "kept from the evil [one]," as in John, but "kept from the hour of the trial/peirasmou [G3986]…" [i.e. a very specific time period]

3) understand that the purpose of that "hour of the trial" is aimed toward "to try those dwelling/katoikountas [G2730] upon the earth" (recall, "OUR citizenship is in Heaven" [completely distinct] and "WE are ambassadors" here, not ones said "to house permanently [upon the earth]" as this "G2730" word means)

Hello D,

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

Tereo is not the word to be looking at, but the word "ek" is translated "out of," i.e. I will keep you out of that hour of trial. The fact that Jesus says that this hour of trial (God's wrath) will be coming upon the whole world, then the only way for the Lord to keep us "out of" it would be fulfill His promise and gather believers out of the world prior to His time of wrath.

Did God keep Rahab out of the destruction of Jericho even while in the midst of it?

What about the other 6 churches in Asia...??

By default your position holds 1 of 7 being raptured out and or in the minimum sets forth a split rapture....

Paul said THE DEAD in Christ and we which are alive and remain = ALL the saved

^ Keep in mind what is said in the concluding parts to EACH of the seven, though (meaning, it's not just meant for that individual one, but "unto the churches [plural]"):

Revelation 2:7 -
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [...]"

Revelation 2:11 -
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [...]"

Revelation 2:17 -
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [...]"

Revelation 2:29 -
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Revelation 3:6 -
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Revelation 3:13 -
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Revelation 3:22 -
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

I know....and that does not change my stance.....if one believes the word means to rapture out then one must also of necessity believe that the ones not faithful will be left behind.....and the bible does not teach that....the indication is clear....the faithful are protected during the Great Tribulation....and this principle is proven over and over through the O.T....

Rahab
Daniel and his three friends
Jeremiah
Noah

etc....were ALL protected during great destruction all around them........

You may not recall that I've said in the past, there's a distinction between "the churchES" (made up of both believers and those coming in His name but who not actually connected with Him [i.e. those who are not really saved]) in chpts 2-3 here, and "the Church which is His body" (consisting ONLY of those who are saved ['in this present age']).

Once our Rapture takes place, at that moment there will exist no believers on the earth. [so, NO "split rapture" or the like]. However, people will come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture (that is, DURING the tribulation years); these are never called "the Church which is His body," though they ARE INDEED "saints" [/"the righteous"/"ye BLESSED"/etc] (just like the OT "saints" are saints also). The Rapture pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints [Dan12:13, etc], not to Trib saints [Rev20:4, etc], not to MK saints).


[p.s. I believe Lk21:36 is NOT a "rapture verse" but applies to those who will be existing IN/DURING the trib years leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth ('actively flee out of each and every thing coming on the earth [all during the trib yrs]...')]

JOEL 2 [31] The SUN shall be turned into darkness, and the MOON into blood, BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

The sun is darkened and the moon turns to blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord will come

REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN BECAME BLACK as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON BECAME AS BLOOD;

When the 6th seal is opened we find the sun being darkened and the moon turning to blood. As found in Joel this happens BEFORE the great Day of the Lord

REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had OPENED THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and THE SUN BECAME BLACK AS SACKCLOTH OF HAIR, AND THE MOON BECAME AS BLOOD; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?

And as you can clearly see {unless your a Rapturist} Gods wrath begins AFTER the 6th seal.

Joel 2:31 / Rev 6:12 ("moon into blood") takes place "BEFORE the GREAT [aspect]"... that is, before the GREAT portion OF the 7-yrs, meaning specifically, IN THE FIRST HALF of it.


And "is come" means it's already arrived by that point.

Here's the same word (in "aorist" also) used in Matthew 12:42 (speaking of an incident well prior to the time this was spoken): "The queen of the south will rise up in the judgment with this the generation and will condemn it. For she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, a greater than Solomon is here."


https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/6-17.htm

I agree with much of what Gaebelein writes, here:

[quoting; bracketed comments mine]

"Revelation 6:9-11.

"The four living creatures have uttered their four-fold “Come.” They are thus seen in connection with the providential government of the world. [note: I've mentioned before that I believe "the 4 living creatures" in some way represent the "4-directional plotment" of Israel of OT times--these match their descriptions--which I won't get into here]. Under the fifth seal the scene changes completely. John saw under the altar the souls of them that had been slain. And they cry, “How long, O Lord!” Who are they? Not the martyrs of past ages. They are risen from the dead and are in glory with redeemed bodies. [note: I disagree that any OT saints are "resurrected" by this point in the chronology, based on Dan12:13, etc; the Church which is His body, yes]. The words of the Lord in the Olivet discourse give us the key. Speaking to His Jewish disciples He said: “Then shall they deliver you up, and shall kill you and ye shall be hated of all nations for My Name’s sake” (Matthew 24:9). [agree with this]

"The Lord speaks of another company of Jewish disciples who will bear a witness during the end of the age, after the rapture of the Church. He will not leave Himself without a witness. He calls a remnant of His people Israel and they bear a witness to the coming of the Messiah, their coming Deliverer and King. Many of them suffer martyrdom. Their cry, “How long?” is the well-known prayer of Jewish saints; and their prayer to have their blood avenged is equally a Jewish prayer. Christians [presently/'in this present age'] are not supplicating for vengeance on their foes. The prayer for vengeance refers us to the imprecatory psalms prewritten by the Holy Spirit in anticipation of the final persecution of Jewish believers. And the fellow-servants and their brethren, who are yet to be killed (Revelation 6:11), are the martyrs of that remnant during the final three and one-half years, which is the great tribulation."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Revelation 6

[end quoting; bracketed comments mine, parenthesis original]

"which again would be in the Fathers house in heaven"..........You wont find that in scripture. You do claim its the Bride to be raptured? Yes?

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Goin to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}. When we meet Christ in the air at the gathering of His Bride {you call the rapture} we will be headin to 1000 yr period of rest. The Kingdom. Yes He is coming back as you stated. But He is staying with us, right here on Gods green earth.

The rapture is the next major event.

If you are not interested ,you will be afterwards.
Only those waiting and watching go.

As opposed to the dead in Christ.
Dead and alive caught up together.

The day of the Lord is not just a day in length, nor does it just take place just before the Lord returns to the earth. But it is initiated by the gathering of the church and continues up until Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. To be clear, what happens after the sixth seal does not make up the entire day of the Lord, but is only apart of it. Consider the Following:

"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

In the scripture above, regarding the "times and seasons," Paul was referring back to what he had just been talking about, which was the resurrection of the dead and the living in Christ being changed and caught up in 14 Thess.4:13-17. When Jesus comes like a "thief in the night" the church will be gathered with God's wrath to follow, all of which make up the day of the Lord.

[/quote]REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had OPENED THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and THE SUN BECAME BLACK AS SACKCLOTH OF HAIR, AND THE MOON BECAME AS BLOOD; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?

And as you can clearly see {unless your a Rapturist} Gods wrath begins AFTER the 6th seal.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but that announcement doesn't mean that God's wrath starts after the 6th seal. The only reason that people claim this is because they apply the wrath as taking place after the announcement. However, the words "has come" are in the aorist tense, which means that God's wrath is being spoken of in its entirety, which includes the plagues of the previous seals. The announcement includes the seals which have already taken place, as well as the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgments still to come. If you don't believe that, please tell me what you think about the following:

"The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” - Rev.11:18

The above is stated after the sounding of the 7th trumpet. If we were to apply the same reasoning that you gave of God's wrath only beginning after the announcement at the 6th seal, then it would mean that God's wrath only begins after the sounding of the 7th trumpet, because the same announcement is proclaimed. However, that announcement at the 7th trumpet means the same thing that it does at the 6th seal, which is an announcement of God's wrath in its entirety. To be clear, it includes all of the seals, the trumpets and the bowl judgments yet to follow.

Who taught you this false teaching---that only "the church" will be gathered and all the OT saints will not?
Do you really believe that the OT saints and the saints that will suffer at the hands of the man of sin will not be a part of the first resurrection?

I have been away from this discussion for a while, but I see it has only gone farther down the path of foolishness and ignorance about the truth of what is to come.

That is one of the "GO TO" FALLACIES peddled by some that embrace imminent return.......they make a distinction between SAINTS and CHURCH members.....a fatal mistake......the bible is clear...in this age the SAINTS are identified with the CHURCHES.........but hey.....it is another sophism utilized by those that peddle the imminent return before the GT.....