Eternal torment VS Annihilation

Genesis 2:7
God breathed into man and he became a living soul. Dust of the ground with the breath of God = a living soul. When we die our bodies return to dust and the breath of life returns to God and we sleep/not conscience until the resurrection.

This concept is not absurd at all it's what the Bible teaches. Take it up with Jesus as he is the one who referred to death as a sleep.

This passage directly contradicts your claim that no one is sleeping in their graves. What is absurd is your perception. JesusLives is correct, your perception is incorrect. Check it out for yourself.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sorry Tourist...old testament.

Absurd? The Bible teaches sleep in reference to the body only. If you include the other scriptures demonstrating that spirits are conscious and aware after death, then the conclusion can only be that sleep is in reference to the body only. Regarding this, consider the following:

"Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”

And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Since Jesus and the thief both died that very day, how could Jesus promise the thief that He would be with him in paradise that same day? The answer is that, Jesus was speaking about the departure of their spirits at the time of death and going to the same place of comfort/paradise in Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were. One could hardly experience paradise if the spirit is sleeping/unconscious. Below is another example:

"Suddenly two men, Moses and Elijah, began talking with Jesus. They appeared in glory and spoke about His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem."

Though Elijah never physically died, Moses certainly did, yet both Moses and Elijah appeared and were speaking with Jesus about His departure. You can't have a conversation with the Lord if you're sleeping. Here's another:

"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Right in the first verse, it is stated that those under the altar had been killed by those on the earth. It is their souls/spirits that are revealed to be under the altar in heaven. They are having a conversation with the Lord and are given white robes to wear. Once again, you would have to be conscious and aware in order to have this taking place.

Revelation 5:2-3 - “And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven, or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.”

Revelation 5:13: - Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

In the both scriptures above, you have those mentioned "Under the earth" which is referring to those in Hades. It would be hard for those in Hades to sing if they were sleeping, not to mention the fact that Hades always refers to the place of departed spirits. Likewise, the angel is asking "who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll." It would make no sense to mention those "under the earth" as not being worthy to open the scroll if in fact they are sleeping, simply because they would not be conscious to do so.

In order to come to any Biblical conclusion, all scripture's must be considered. The error is that, because you and others just camp out on the reference to "sleeping," applying it to both the body and the spirit, you ignore the other scriptures which demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit after death, and/or create an apologetic to explain away those scriptures.

The rich man and Lazarus is a good example of adopting or creating an apologetic in order to distort its literal meaning. And that because it completely destroys the idea of soul-sleep and annihilation. Therefore, the need to get rid of it's literal meaning.

The Old and New Testaments were broken down into sections, chapters, and verses by man and are in totality the Word of God.

2Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Is it the general consensus of this site that the Old Testament is not scripture and therefore is not part of the Word of God?

Bodies! Bodies are sleeping in the dust of the earth, not the spirit. The reference to "shall awake" is referring to their bodies resurrecting.

When the Lord appears to gather the church, He will bring with him the spirits of those who have died in Him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. At that time, those believers who are still alive will simply be changed immortal and glorified and that because they will not have been dead in order to resurrected.

Being asleep is only referring to the body!

If the spirit is alive immediately after death and is conscious what would be the point of saying that those sleeping in the dust shall awake? They are already awake and have been since the moment of death.

That's exactly right. And what's worse is no-one seems to be willing to address any of your claims. They just plough on through with their own scriptural interpretation...

That verse is talking about the resurrection of the body, not the soul and spirit. Let's get this right. When the Bible refers to sleep, it means the death of the physical body here on earth.

Consider the purpose of God for humanity. He created us to have relationship with Him, eternally. Do you deny this? If not, let's look at another point. That we are made up of mortal and corrupted flesh, destroyed by sin. Why therefore would we want to live in these broken dwellings? Death is liberation from sinful flesh, without it, we are doomed to wander in these bodies forever. We are spiritual beings first and foremost. We were made to be with God. And those who love Him will not wait to see Him when they did, they will see Him immediately.

I did not state the old testament was not scripture.

It destroys their false theology.......simple as

erroneous scriptural opinion that is.....

Because the reference to "those sleeping in the dust of the earth shall awake" is referring to the resurrection, which has to do with the spirit returning to the body and body standing up again. Remember, human beings are made up of body, soul and spirit (1 Thess.5:22, Heb.4:12). It is the body that is sleeping in the dust of the earth that is going to be raised and reunited with their spirit at the resurrection.

The word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" comes from two words "ana = up" and "hestemi = to stand." Properly, to stand up again bodily. Jesus is our example of this in that when His body died His spirit departed and went into Sheol/Hades, where on the third day His spirit returned to His body and He stood up again in the same body, albeit immortal and glorified.

Regarding the time of death, 2 Corinthians 5:6 states that to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. Regarding this scripture some have attempted to say that Paul was referring to the resurrection. The eternal state. However, this cannot be the case because the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body with the body standing back up again, where 2 Cor.5:6 is talking about the spirit leaving the body at the time of death.

I hope this sheds some light on the subject.

I know we totally disagree on the timing of the resurrection/change, but this post is spot on!!

Your posts are always scripturally sound and have been helpful and insightful through the years.

You are correct in saying that death is liberation from sinful flesh. You are also absolutely correct in stating that God created us to have a relationship with Him. Perhaps God was lonely before the creation of man.

Please provide a verse that shows what His will was when He created Adam out of his own free will choice (could have not made Adam)... I lean towards this still being a Mystery.
He did not need man.

The Lord bless you! I'm just zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, just as many others are. My hope is always that the information is beneficial and edifying. If we consider all of the scriptures on any given subject, we can come to a right conclusion. When we read those scriptures which demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body, it should beg us to ask the question of what the phrase "sleep" is referring to, otherwise we have conflicting scriptural information.

eternal life doesnt mean just existing forever.

life is to know God and be in connection to him