Eternal torment VS Annihilation

[UnderGrace]

The Old and New Testaments were broken down into sections, chapters, and verses by man and are in totality the Word of God.

2Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Is it the general consensus of this site that the Old Testament is not scripture and therefore is not part of the Word of God?

I should have elaborated, in these ancient languages did they not have the large vocabulary we have, back then the same word was used in multiple ways, but it was always dependent on the context, in the dust of the earth would clearly tell them it meant dead...... unless they were buried alive which did happen in the Medieval Times and probably before and after which is why we have the term "dead ringer"

And I can tell you about that sometime if you would like.

 

[LW97]

eternal life doesnt mean just existing forever.

life is to know God and be in connection to him

Correct

 

[LW97]

It destroys their false theology.......simple as

I also came to agree that Luke 16:19-31 is no parable, but it is no proof for immortality in the Lake of Fire either, since nobody is in the Lake of Fire yet. It talks about the rich man going to Hades, not to the Lake of Fire.

 

[itbtsyp]

since to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Those who are not in Christ go to Hades.

2 Corinthians 5:6 states that to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. Regarding this scripture some have attempted to say that Paul was referring to the resurrection. The eternal state. However, this cannot be the case because the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body with the body standing back up again, where 2 Cor.5:6 is talking about the spirit leaving the body at the time of death.

While I agree with y'all and your premise, it really bothers me when 2 Cor.5:6 is misquoted like this. I've seen it used against the argument because of the misquote.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New International Version (NIV)
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

It does not say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Consider this: "I'm always confident knowing that while I'm sitting in my office working, I'm away from my family. I am confident, I say and willing (prefer) to be away from my office and on vacation in California with my family".

But it doesn't mean that when I'm not in my office working I'm on vacation in California with my family.

While I understand your points, taking this out of context doesn't prove the point. Paul is saying here, that we'd rather be with Him than here in our tents, bodies.
2 Corinthians 5:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
You make your points well enough using other scripture, this one imho, detracts from it. I believe even those who ascribe to soul sleep would agree that we'd all rather be in the presence of the Lord than here in our bodies.

When it's misquoted, it opens the door to these types of arguments... "Regarding this scripture some have attempted to say that Paul was referring to the resurrection".

That's a legit argument they can make Ahwatukee, because the scripture doesn't refer to a timeline at all, just a preference.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I also came to agree that Luke 16:19-31 is no parable, but it is no proof for immortality in the Lake of Fire either, since nobody is in the Lake of Fire yet. It talks about the rich man going to Hades, not to the Lake of Fire.

That the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable is a good and right conclusion. The spirits in Hades will be released and united with their resurrected bodies to appear at the great white throne for their official judgment.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." - Rev.20:13

 

[Ahwatukee]

While I agree with y'all and your premise, it really bothers me when 2 Cor.5:6 is misquoted like this. I've seen it used against the argument because of the misquote.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New International Version (NIV)
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

It does not say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Consider this: "I'm always confident knowing that while I'm sitting in my office working, I'm away from my family. I am confident, I say and willing (prefer) to be away from my office and on vacation in California with my family".

But it doesn't mean that when I'm not in my office working I'm on vacation in California with my family.

While I understand your points, taking this out of context doesn't prove the point. Paul is saying here, that we'd rather be with Him than here in our tents, bodies.
2 Corinthians 5:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
You make your points well enough using other scripture, this one imho, detracts from it. I believe even those who ascribe to soul sleep would agree that we'd all rather be in the presence of the Lord than here in our bodies.

When it's misquoted, it opens the door to these types of arguments... "Regarding this scripture some have attempted to say that Paul was referring to the resurrection".

That's a legit argument they can make Ahwatukee, because the scripture doesn't refer to a timeline at all, just a preference.

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from (absent) the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

The meaning of the scripture is clear in that, Paul is saying that while we are in this body we are absent from the presence of the Lord. The reference to be absent from the body refers to our spirits departing at the time of death and will go to be in the presence of the Lord. This also supported by the following:

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The meaning is that, Paul is torn between remaining alive in his body vs. dying and his spirit departing to be with the Lord. This is very clear in its meaning.

 

[Deade]

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from (absent) the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

The meaning of the scripture is clear in that, Paul is saying that while we are in this body we are absent from the presence of the Lord. The reference to be absent from the body refers to our spirits departing at the time of death and will go to be in the presence of the Lord. This also supported by the following:

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The meaning is that, Paul is torn between remaining alive in his body vs. dying and his spirit departing to be with the Lord. This is very clear in its meaning.

There are many morally good people in the world, but unless our Father draws them into His fold: they will never understand God's word and His plan. We don't have to worry about anyone being tormented in flames forever.

Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Everybody sins and everybody pays. This is physical death. The dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, you close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal. In other words in Paul's conscious mind, it is resurrection day.

 

[garee]

That the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable is a good and right conclusion. The spirits in Hades will be released and united with their resurrected bodies to appear at the great white throne for their official judgment.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." - Rev.20:13

Yes they who live in a body of death were already judged having not believed .(no faith, no God ) That judgement 2nd is the execution>.. death tossed in the lake of fire "never to rise to new spirit life" forevermore.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evilJohn3:18-19

When God corrupted the creation it was not only what the eyes see, but both body and spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 King James Version (KJV) Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

 

[itbtsyp]

"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from (absent) the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

The meaning of the scripture is clear in that, Paul is saying that while we are in this body we are absent from the presence of the Lord. ( I fully agree) The reference to be absent from the body refers to our spirits departing at the time of death and will go to be in the presence of the Lord (is not supported in 2 Cor 5:6). This also supported by the following:

"If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ (to you who understands supporting scripture against soul sleep, means immediately, but to those who ascribe to it, just means a preference), which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

The meaning is that, Paul is torn between remaining alive in his body vs. dying and his spirit departing to be with the Lord. This is very clear in its meaning.

We agree, but 2 Cor 5:6 does not say to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. And quoting it incorrectly in an argument to refute a person ascribing to soul sleep is not fruitful. DUCY? I humbly submit that you are assuming what is not written in either of these scriptures.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ But that is what the "unclothed" concept refers to... being "absent from" [apart from] the body, upon our death (that is, the death of the believer / member of the Church which is His body); whereas "clothed upon" refers to the "change" that will occur for "still-living [/mortal]" believers, APART from having to die first.

Paul is simply saying we (as believers) are "earnestly desiring" the latter; no one of us are "earnestly desiring" (by contrast) to DIE... but we are "willing" [to die] if God so wills that we do so (before the other)… because either way ("unclothed"/-in death; or "clothed upon" apart from having to die, at the "change"), we will be present with the Lord.

 

[garee]

We agree, but 2 Cor 5:6 does not say to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. And quoting it incorrectly in an argument to refute a person ascribing to soul sleep is not fruitful. DUCY? I humbly submit that you are assuming what is not written in either of these scriptures.

To be absent of these present bodies of death is to be present with Christ dead asleep awaiting the promise our new incorruptible bodies . We will never be absent of that body .

 

[Ahwatukee]

We agree, but 2 Cor 5:6 does not say to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. And quoting it incorrectly in an argument to refute a person ascribing to soul sleep is not fruitful. DUCY? I humbly submit that you are assuming what is not written in either of these scriptures.

Well, whether the words are "absent from the body" or "away from the body" the meaning is the same:

For our spirit to be present in our current bodies = not being in the presence of the Lord

For our spirit to be away (absent) from our current bodies = To be in the presence of the Lord

In Philippian's, Paul says that he is torn between staying in the body in order to be a benefit for the Philippian's, or to depart, i.e. his spirit leaving his body to be in the presence of the Lord.

My original point in all this is that, when the believer dies, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.

As far as the use of the translated word "absent" is concerned, it is an acceptable translation. Here is the Greek word from which it is translated from:

============================================
HELPS Word-studies
1553 ekdēméō (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 1218 /dḗmos, "a population, people") – properly, out from home, i.e. with the outcome of being absent ("away from home"). It only occurs in 2 Cor 5:6-9.

In both 2 Cor.5:6-8 and Philippian's 1:22-23, Paul is revealing that at the time of death that his spirit would depart and go to be in the presence of the Lord. So I don't know how you can claim that I am assuming, when Paul gives a comparison of both.

If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

These scriptures are very good arguments against soul-sleep, as well as the event of the rich man and Lazarus, as well as many others.

And as I said previously, Paul is not referring to the resurrection, else it would make no sense for him to say to the Philippian's that it would be more necessary for him to remain in the body. Because if he was speaking about the resurrection, then their would be no reason for Paul to say that it was necessary for him to remain for their benefit, because they as believers would also be resurrected or changed and caught up at the same time he was.

As far as whether to use the word "absent" or "Away," they both convey the same meaning. Check out the translation of the word of these major translations

New International Version
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Living Translation
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

English Standard Version
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Study Bible
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Berean Literal Bible
Now we are confident and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

New American Standard Bible
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

King James Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Christian Standard Bible
In fact, we are confident, and we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Contemporary English Version
We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.

Good News Translation
We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.

International Standard Version
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.

NET Bible
Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Heart English Bible
We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because of this we trust and we long to depart from the body and to be with Our Lord.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.

New American Standard 1977
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Jubilee Bible 2000
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

King James 2000 Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American King James Version
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American Standard Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

English Revised Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.

World English Bible
We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation
we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

 

[LW97]

Yes they who live in a body of death were already judged having not believed .(no faith, no God ) That judgement 2nd is the execution>.. death tossed in the lake of fire "never to rise to new spirit life" forevermore.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evilJohn3:18-19

When God corrupted the creation it was not only what the eyes see, but both body and spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 King James Version (KJV) Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

amen

 

[dcontroversal]

I also came to agree that Luke 16:19-31 is no parable, but it is no proof for immortality in the Lake of Fire either, since nobody is in the Lake of Fire yet. It talks about the rich man going to Hades, not to the Lake of Fire.

Pay attention to the fact that BOTH THE BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET ARE MEN.....what state are they in when they get cast into the lake of fire and how long does this say they will suffer? Amd then note that ALL THE LOST JUGDED AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE OF GOD ARE ALSO CAST INTO THE PIT ALIVE.......I do believe you can add 1 + 1 +1 and get 3!!!!

These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

 

[LW97]

Pay attention to the fact that BOTH THE BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET ARE MEN.....what state are they in when they get cast into the lake of fire and how long does this say they will suffer? Amd then note that ALL THE LOST JUGDED AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE OF GOD ARE ALSO CAST INTO THE PIT ALIVE.......I do believe you can add 1 + 1 +1 and get 3!!!!

These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Who are the Beast and the False Prophet? Also, Revelation is more symbolic than any other book of the Bible. Of course the lost are casted into the Lake of Fire but that doesn't mean they aren't destroyed there.

Eternal judgement is just as eternal as eternal hell. However, the final judgement will not last forever, the results however will be forever.

 

[Skyline]

Pay attention to the fact that BOTH THE BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET ARE MEN.....what state are they in when they get cast into the lake of fire and how long does this say they will suffer? Amd then note that ALL THE LOST JUGDED AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE OF GOD ARE ALSO CAST INTO THE PIT ALIVE.......I do believe you can add 1 + 1 +1 and get 3!!!!

These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Sorry for a elementary question but which verse says they are men? Can’t angels, including fallen, turn themselves to appear human? As is shown with Lot (Genesis 9) - unless you argue fallen can’t appear as humans, only as angels of light?

“And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭11:14‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[LW97]

We are commanded to be as merciful as God, but if God will torment the lost forever without end, then it isn't hard to do.

 

[LW97]

It is A VERY BIG DEAL. The following questions are affected by whether the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable or Bible truth presented by God the Son.

1. Is Jesus God with divine knowledge or is He a mere man?

2. Is God the only one who knows the truth about the afterlife?

3. Did anyone know about two divisions in Sheol/Hades before Christ revealed them?

4. Did anyone know that souls and spirits would be in conscious comfort or conscious torment in Hades before Christ revealed it?

5. Did anyone connect Sheol to Hades before Christ and is Hades still a reality?

6. Did Christ Himself literally go to Sheol/Hades for three days and three night where He was very much awake and alive while preaching to the spirits in prison?

7. Are the false doctrines of Soul Sleep and Annihilationism utterly destroyed by this narrative?

Soul sleep yes, conditional immortality no.

 

[LW97]

Question

Does Everlasting life = Eternal life or temporary?

How does that jive with...

Everlasting punishment = temporal punishment?

That's a strawman. In the same manner I could say "if eternal torment is true, then all people have eternal life".
Of course conditional immortality means eternal punishment, hence, the RESULTS of the punishment are eternal.

 

[LW97]

That the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable is a good and right conclusion. The spirits in Hades will be released and united with their resurrected bodies to appear at the great white throne for their official judgment.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." - Rev.20:13

THERE I find nothing to disagree. What we disagree on is whether or not the Lake of Fire will literally devour the wicked's souls (Hebrews 10:27).