Eternal torment VS Annihilation

It is A VERY BIG DEAL. The following questions are affected by whether the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable or Bible truth presented by God the Son.

1. Is Jesus God with divine knowledge or is He a mere man?

2. Is God the only one who knows the truth about the afterlife?

3. Did anyone know about two divisions in Sheol/Hades before Christ revealed them?

4. Did anyone know that souls and spirits would be in conscious comfort or conscious torment in Hades before Christ revealed it?

5. Did anyone connect Sheol to Hades before Christ and is Hades still a reality?

6. Did Christ Himself literally go to Sheol/Hades for three days and three night where He was very much awake and alive while preaching to the spirits in prison?

7. Are the false doctrines of Soul Sleep and Annihilationism utterly destroyed by this narrative?

Richard Bauckham is just another writer. Why would you place the meaning of the event of the rich man and Lazarus in his or anyone else's hands?

I know he's just a writer, and I don't feel like I'm placing the meaning in his hands. I offered it up as a view point to consider. I view Bauckham as a writer who did a study on the comparable folkloric stories in ancient literature that were prominent of the time when Jesus spoke about it.

I don't see what's wrong with considering an authors comparison here. If we denounce all writers as just another writer, therefore we can't hear what they have to say, which seems like you're implying, where are we when anything is written about as things to consider? Almost as if we'd be saying, "I'll only consider them if i agree with what they're saying".

Just another author, yes. A possible folkloric story Jesus might have been referencing, also yes. I can see Jesus using the same story as a non parable as well, can't you? If Bauckham is correct, and the folkloric story existed as a common tale of the time, it doesn't prove or disprove the rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

"In addition parables use symbolism to represent what is literal, e.g. sower = the Lord, wheat = the son's of the kingdom, the weeds = the wicked, harvesters = the angels, etc. In opposition, the rich man and Lazarus uses the real names of Abraham, Lazarus and Moses, as well as the real location of Hades".

I like your explanation here.

I view Bauckham as a writer who did a study on the comparable folkloric stories in ancient literature that were prominent of the time when Jesus spoke about it.

I would offer..another way of looking at it. Two kinds of "dead" spoken of in the bible..

1# dead, never to rise to new spirit life

2# dead asleep, awaiting for the wake up call on the last day ……(no snooze alarms)

When those dead asleep and those still reigning with Christ by faith on the last day in the twinkling of the eye.. both as one rise and receive their new promised incorruptible body

I would think the bible defines the usage of the words. Dead asleep waiting for the wake up call. "Arise" for the believers glory unto God. No glory with the other kind of death (second)

John11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

There he divides death into kinds. Glory and no glory and underscores it the glory by thereby. You could call it the kind of death that glories God not seen. Our grieving is not as the world as the end of the matter but the new beginning.

Satan as usual it would seem would have men believe its all one in the same to take way the seed of understanding.. If God said one kind he would say two kinds. The upside down god of this world loves to turn things upside down to take away the spiritual un-seen understanding of faith.

Again the Holy Spirit I think defines the kind of death to his glory not the kind that will not rise. But those who will.

When Jesus first said he would not die It would seem clear not die like any human but one to the glory of God. Later in verse 14 he tells them plainly he is dead .It does not contradict the first words "This sickness is not unto death_ but defines the parable of life and death how it relates to the word sleep as dead asleep. Not dead, dead, dead, dead, 4 days

John11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (4 days)

By all human standard he had no life no qualifier by which he could arise.

The one who arose in three day is the ressurection .It his second call it would seem we are all hoping to hear.

Why would Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise?

I asked an SDA one time and he told me the comma is in the wrong place......however there is no punctuation in the original Greek correct?

God's truths have nothing to do with folklore, fairy tales, legends, and fables. Nor any mythology, whether Babylonian, Greek, or Roman. So there is nothing *comparable*. Jesus gave us divine revelations.

Thank you for your honest reply. If I seem adamant about the event of the rich man and Lazarus, it is because I have been dealing with and contending for the truth of it being a literal event for many years. Those who interpret it as a parable, are usually those who believe in annihilation in order to get rid of the literal torment that the rich man was/is suffering. The others are those who believe in soul-sleep, because the event shows two men physically dying with their spirits being conscious and aware in Hades, one comforted and the other in torment, which kills the idea of soul-sleep.

It's okay if you didn't seek out Bauckham and read chapter 4 in his book that I was referencing the other day , but to say the story of the rich man and Lazarus and the 2 stories in ancient literature that became folklore in the time of Jesus is silly. Read them and you'll see, it's the same story just flipped. BTW I don't ascribe to soul sleep, or annihilation.

I do however find it interesting that the stories are so similar.



And thank you for your honest reply as well. I was hoping to have a conversation about the similarities, and not have these ideas just swept under a rug just because of old arguments. I thought perhaps introducing a new scenario to an old argument might make for something new to consider. (again, not trying to side one way or the other on soul sleep or annihilation). But it is the subject of the OP.

Good day JesusLives,

It is the body that is not immortal. However, everyone who comes into the world their spirit exists forever in one state or another. At the time of death those who are in Christ, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor.5:6, Phil.1:23). In opposition, when the unbeliever dies, just as the rich man of Lazarus fame, their spirit departs and goes down into Hades where they will remain in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment. As scripture states, there will be a resurrection of both righteous and the wicked. The righteous will receive immortal and glorified bodies, while the unrighteous will receive a resurrected body mete for their punishment in the lake of fire. Life and death are both states of conscious existence.

Life = Eternal existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire



The problem with your claim above is that, if the resurrection and catching away was to take place at the second coming (end of the age), then it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer (1 Thess.5:9) and which time period Jesus said He would keep us out of (Rev.3:10). The bottom line is that, because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those who in Christ and therefore we will not be exposed to it.

Regarding we not being immortal, we have many scriptures that demonstrate that the spirit does indeed goes on, conscious and aware after death. The event of the rich man and Lazarus is a good example of this, that is unless it is forced into a parable and therefore getting rid of the information which reveals the rich man and Lazarus both dying and yet showing their spirits as being conscious and aware down in Sheol/Hades, with Lazarus in a place of comfort and the Rich man in a place of torment in flame.

Then we have Moses and Elijah appearing before Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. We have Jesus telling the thief crucified with Him saying, "today you will be with me in paradise," which begs the question, since Jesus and the thief both died that very day, how could Jesus promise him that they would both be in paradise that same day? I hope that you are not going to use that apologetic which says that the comma was in the wrong place so that the verse reads as "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise," instead of "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Then you have the souls of the fifth seal martyrs under the altar in heaven who are very much conscious and aware, having a conversation with the Lord. (Rev.6:9-12)

And there are many other examples demonstrating that the spirit is conscious and aware after the death of the body.

Believers become immortal and glorified at the resurrection of the dead, with the living being changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them. This all happens prior to God's wrath at least seven years prior to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which is the second coming. In fact, Rev.17:14, 19:14 shows those who will have previously been caught up following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the fine linen that she will have received at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven during the time of God's wath.

I won't talk about a comma but I will say that Jesus said to the woman wanting to cling to him after he raised from the dead that he told her he had not yet ascended to his Father in heaven which would lead me to believe he lay sleeping/dead in the grave until Sunday morning so if Jesus had not gone to heaven on the day he died the thief didn't either and is still sleeping/dead in the grave until Jesus returns in the second coming.

As to your we won't go through tribulation.... The Jews would disagree with you that God spared them from going through the plagues that hit Egypt. They were there and witnessed the plagues but were spared from some of them. The same for us in the end of time and the plagues falling God's people will be spared.

so if Jesus had not gone to heaven on the day he died the thief didn't either and is still sleeping/dead in the grave until Jesus returns in the second coming.

Nothing like a parable .What's a parable like.

Jesus said with out parable he spoke not .That enough to convince me. What what it take to convince you? The words "this is a parable"?

The word parable is not in chapter 14 . Are there any parable in that chapter?

No one is sleeping in their graves. You won't find any souls and spirits by digging under their tombstones. Check it out for yourself! That is one of the most ABSURD ideas to come along. And it is primarily because the Hebrew word Sheol was INCORRECTLY translated as "the grave".

You call yourself "JesusLives" and if Jesus lives then there are no souls and spirits in any graves. Those who are in Christ go to be with Christ in Heaven (where He is seated at the right hand of the Father), since to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Those who are not in Christ go to Hades.

That's an oversimplification. Jesus did not "only" speak in parables. He spoke in parables to the crowd because they did not understand the spiritual truths he was saying. When we was speaking to the disciples in Luke 16, he spoke plainly. It's not a parable, will never be a parable and no matter how many times you repeat otherwise, will still never be a parable.

He said without parables he spoke not. Why complicate it rather than search out the unseen understanding?

He simply spoke to multitude (everyone) in parable .Hiding the spiritual understanding from every believer and unbeliever . When he would get the disciples alone he would teach them "how to hear Him" so they could understand the food they knew not of .Parables using the proper prescription like 2 Corinthians 4:18 is the teaching tool designed so that those can hear as his understanding gives us ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches..

No interpretation of the signified language of God no understanding.

Psalm 49:4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

Psalm 78:I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Proverbs 1:5-7 King James Version (KJV) A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Remember the whole period of Kings in Israel was used as a parable up until the reformation.

Not sure why but the 1 century reformation brought on be the death of Jesus one of the most glorious events .To me like the crossing of the Red Sea. Today in most circles it seems to get swept under the rug as if it never occurred .

Luke 16 is full of parables. The one involving Lazarus is in a series of them . Jesus did not speak in parables for the one purpose to how we can hear Him and then to trick up some giving them a literal interpretation again in the middle of a series

That kind of teaching is un heard of through the Bible.

The answer to the para ble hidden from those who refuse to seek it out is easy. Do not go above all things written in the law (Moses) and the prophets (sola scriptura . Which would include taking away the understanding of the parable

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead
Luke 16:31

What do you think the conclusion of the parable is. Some would say the occlusion to the parable is do not look to the spiritual underrsatanding .

The reason he did this was because they didn't understand the spiritual truths he was trying to say.

Yes, parables ILLUSTRATED spiritual truths.

But the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus does not illustrate anything. It is a REVELATION OF THE AFTERLIFE. So why do people resent such a revelation? That is the real issue.

Another question.....where did the people go who lived and died before Abraham?