Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

mailmandan · Jul 2, 2019

Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. In John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 Jesus clearly stated that salvation is given simply on believing in Him. Yet Waggles disagrees below:

Waggles said:

Works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics and Mormons) "redefine" believing to "include" works and teach salvation through believing + works. Romans Catholics and Mormons also use the phrase "full gospel" or "fullness of the gospel" which is essentially salvation by faith + works and is a perversion of the gospel.

Waggles said:

Salvation by water baptism + other works + speaking in tongues is doctrinal rubbish.

Skyline · Jul 2, 2019

From my understanding the main two camps place much on their variations based on Hebrews 6:6. I’ve heard it argued a different way from the two, one which I fully agree with.

To the Calvinist Hebrews 6:6 refers to the false convert; to the Arminian it’s to the apostate.

Romans 6:6 comes down to the context. The end of Hebrew 5 defines it being directed to believers in infancy, and Hebrews 6 starts with a continuation from the end of Hebrews 5.

Per Hebrews 6:6 a true believer (the millisecond they had believed) still receive salvation, even though they continue in infancy or are immature believers. The word Parapiptó (“to fall in, into or away, to fail”) is used only once in scripture in 6:6. Hebrews 12:4-13 shows God disciplines His children. By falling away after salvation one receives the temporary discipline God will bring (e.g. Hebrews 3:12-19) and loss of rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ. It’s a loss of blessings for those not in maturity.

Corinthians supports this as they were immature and carnal in nature but nowhere does it say they were not saved. 1 Corinthians 3 supports this; build up a good foundation which will he tested by fire at the Judgement Seat of Christ. They still go to heaven but barely (as one escaping through the flames - which burns away anything bad leaving anything good. Its only for giving rewards.)

Acts 5 shows a strong example of God's discipline. Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, dropped dead. It does not say they weren’t saved; if anything they were but got disciplined or called home.

1 John 5 supports this; it is directed to believers, that there is a sin that leads to physical death.

I don’t know how a false convert, per a Calvinists viewpoint, who think they are saved but really aren’t, can share in the Holy Spirit, be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, etc. as described in verse 6:6 without being true convert. Nowhere in scripture does it say an unsaved person partakes in the Holy Spirit.

A lot of other scripture verses support once you are saved and you cannot lose it; you can't be unborn - but God doesn’t take living against His will lightly - here on earth or when that person shows up in heaven.

UnderGrace · Jul 2, 2019

Skyline said:

I don’t know how a false convert, per a Calvinists viewpoint, who think they are saved but really aren’t, can share in the Holy Spirit, be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, etc. as described in verse 6:6 without being true convert. Nowhere in scripture does it say an unsaved person partakes in the Holy Spirit.

Right on

Amen and Amen!!!

tourist · Jul 2, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

I fully agree that Peter didn't deny Jesus in his heart but out of fear. He was human like the rest of us. Later, when Jesus asked him 3 times if he loved Him that was done for Peter's benefit to ease his mind from guilt. Asking him 3 times was significant in some way scripturally but I don't have an answer for that. It is clear in the bible that numbers are used prominently and have great significance.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 2, 2019

Skyline said:

From my understanding the main two camps place much on their variations based on Hebrews 6:6. I’ve heard it argued a different way from the two, one which I fully agree with.

To the Calvinist Hebrews 6:6 refers to the false convert; to the Arminian it’s to the apostate.

Romans 6:6 comes down to the context. The end of Hebrew 5 defines it being directed to believers in infancy, and Hebrews 6 starts with a continuation from the end of Hebrews 5.

Per Hebrews 6:6 a true believer (the millisecond they had believed) still receive salvation, even though they continue in infancy or are immature believers. The word Parapiptó (“to fall in, into or away, to fail”) is used only once in scripture in 6:6. Hebrews 12:4-13 shows God disciplines His children. By falling away after salvation one receives the temporary discipline God will bring (e.g. Hebrews 3:12-19) and loss of rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ. It’s a loss of blessings for those not in maturity.

Corinthians supports this as they were immature and carnal in nature but nowhere does it say they were not saved. 1 Corinthians 3 supports this; build up a good foundation which will he tested by fire at the Judgement Seat of Christ. They still go to heaven but barely (as one escaping through the flames - which burns away anything bad leaving anything good. Its only for giving rewards.)

Acts 5 shows a strong example of God's discipline. Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, dropped dead. It does not say they weren’t saved; if anything they were but got disciplined or called home.

1 John 5 supports this; it is directed to believers, that there is a sin that leads to physical death.

I don’t know how a false convert, per a Calvinists viewpoint, who think they are saved but really aren’t, can share in the Holy Spirit, be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, etc. as described in verse 6:6 without being true convert. Nowhere in scripture does it say an unsaved person partakes in the Holy Spirit.

A lot of other scripture verses support once you are saved and you cannot lose it; you can't be unborn - but God doesn’t take living against His will lightly - here on earth or when that person shows up in heaven.

Nice post. Alot to think of.

But just to note (I am not calvinist by the way)

One who comes to a true body of Christ, and experiences the blessings of God in that environment, and heard the truth, Have tasted the heavenly gift. It does not mean they have been saved. It just means they have tasted.

Remember in John 6. Jesus said do not just taste the food he came to give you. But chew and literally “gnaw” on it. This is what brings us to repentance and faith. Many people taste and maybe even believe, But have yet to truly recieve the gift of the HS based on their true faith and repentance.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 2, 2019

tourist said:

I believe he did it to restore peter. Peter. Out of guilt had to be wondering why Jesus allowed him to still even walk with him based on what he did

So 3 times, Jesus asked (twice he asked do you agape me, the last time, he asked if you phileo me) And three times peter could only claim he could only muster phileo love, and jesus still said to go out and do what he wanted him to do. Build his church his church. Talk about encouragment, I do believe this is what gave peter the will to do what he did, even die on his own cross.

gb9 · Jul 2, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

yes, Peter denied Jesus 3 times, 3 times Jesus asked if he loved Him.

also, Peter came back, judas did not. he went back to the high priests , then hanged himself.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 2, 2019

gb9 said:

Peter showed remorse

Judas just felt guilty, because he knew jesus was innocent.

Big difference.

Chester · Jul 2, 2019

LW97 said:

A lot of the conflict is resolved when one simply acknowledges that the person who has faith in Jesus Christ will be saved. The person who does not have faith in Jesus Christ will not be saved.

The promises of eternal life and security and rest are always given to the believer, not to the unbeliever.

Man is a free moral agent with the ability to choose to respond to God's grace and believe. Or, he can choose/refuse to believe and be eternally lost.

For myself, I know very well that though I am a firm believer today, I have the moral capability to choose/refuse to believe in Jesus Christ. God never has forced anyone to believe, nor will He ever force anyone to believe.

Now for the Calvinist who does not believe in man's free choice, of course, what I say above they will not agree with. But that does not change the fact that I today have the moral capability to become a rebel/a Hitlar/ and thus an unbeliever.

So how can I have assurance of salvation, then, when I have the capability to cease believing? Because "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." (II Tim. 1:12) My confidence and assurance rests in God and in His love and mercy, and not in the creed of man.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 2, 2019

Chester said:

Think about this folks.

He knows very well he is a firm believer, and that is his identity and security.

Sadly. He has no idea if 20 years from now he will still maintain that firm belief. He could lose it. And by doing this, lose his salvation. (Ie, his salvation rests solely on his own power and ability.)

In other words. His way to salvation is HIS ABILITY to believe, Not Gods ability to sustain his faith. Its a backwards way of adding works to the gospel. Without actually calling it works.

Skyline · Jul 2, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Based on the context and it being a continuation of how Hebrews 5 I see them as being saved when 6:6 is described.

I’ve seen MacArthur argue it is directed to various audiences but that isn’t exegetically true. He is imposing a notion into the text.

Plus Hebrews 6:7-8 shows its one piece of land (NIV doesn't show this well in 6:8 like other translations). Some produce fruit, others on that same land produce thorns and thistles. People assume the “burned” is Hell but it isn’t; a farmer would burn the field and replant if He is willing (which is where Hebrews 6:3 comes into play). The same field is still “saved”

UnderGrace · Jul 2, 2019

Skyline said:

He does that a lot..... impose a notion into the text and change his views!!

All epistles are written to believers and must be read in that light.

Hebrews 6:6 ....born again once, one cannot try and be born again and again, as if we needed another sacrifice to try an crucify ourselves again is to put the work of Christ to open shame by stating His one sacrifice was not sufficient.

Amen ...every time we read burned does not mean hell....what a travesty .......sometimes burned is just burned.

Magenta · Jul 2, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

That is essentially what Scripture says, also

1 John 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged
to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

eternally-gratefull · Jul 2, 2019

Magenta said:

Amen

Do we want to trust the words of men or the words of God?

eternally-gratefull · Jul 2, 2019

Skyline said:

I see it different

I see the author arguing those who have tasted the heavenly gift returning to law. (Their true faith) Which states that salvation and forgiveness of sin is accomplished through animal sacrifice. Ie. If it were possible one could fall away (not if that have fallen away) then they could never be renewed (again, according to the law they could be renewed) and thus crucify christ again (his death was not sufficient) putting him to open shame (the belief. that his death was not sufficient

He is talking to people who grew up in the law. Tried christianity, But the law was STILL where their faith was. WHich is why they would return to begin with.

Not that they CAN lose salvation, His argument is that they can,t and even IF THEY COULD, they could never be renewed

Skyline · Jul 2, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

I see it different

I see the author arguing those who have tasted the heavenly gift returning to law. (Their true faith) Which states that salvation and forgiveness of sin is accomplished through animal sacrifice. Ie. If it were possible one could fall away (not if that have fallen away) then they could never be renewed (again, according to the law they could be renewed) and thus crucify christ again (his death was not sufficient) putting him to open shame (the belief. that his death was not sufficient

He is talking to people who grew up in the law. Tried christianity, But the law was STILL where their faith was. WHich is why they would return to begin with.

Not that they CAN lose salvation, His argument is that they can,t and even IF THEY COULD, they could never be renewed

So are you saying those addressed were/are true converts or not?

posthuman · Jul 2, 2019

did you know that everlasting gobstoppers have an expiration date?

they are not everlasting at all; it's a lie.

who would lie about something being 'everlasting' ??? why???

posthuman · Jul 2, 2019

Skyline said:

When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.

(1 Samuel 10:10)

So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”
(1 Samuel 19:23-24)

what do you make of this?
what are the implications of how you read the rest of his history, if Saul is saved?

Skyline · Jul 2, 2019

posthuman said:

When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.

(1 Samuel 10:10)

So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

(1 Samuel 19:23-24)

what do you make of this?
what are the implications of how you read the rest of his history, if Saul is saved?

That was a typo on my part; I should have clarified it as in the New Testament. Do you know of one?

posthuman · Jul 2, 2019

Skyline said:

oh, is the old testament irrelevant? why?

And He called to Him His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.

These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food. And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. As you enter the house, greet it, and if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

(Matthew 10:1-15)

And He called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff — no bread, no bag, no money in their belts — but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics. And He said to them, “Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you depart from there, and if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.” So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent, and they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them.

(Mark 6:7-13)

When Jesus had called the twelve together, He gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. He told them: “Take nothing for the journey — no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt. Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere.

(Luke 9:1-6)

how did Judas go around healing the sick, raising the dead, cleansing lepers & casting out demons?

Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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