Eternal torment VS Annihilation

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Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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#61
Mar 12, 2015
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#61
LW97 said:
Yes, but still it does not proof that one who is in the fire cannot escape from it. That would only be possible if he is eternally destroyed.
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Do you actually think that God is incapable of keeping people in punishment, as though He would not know if they escaped? If that were true, then there would be a possibility for those currently in Sheol/Hades to escape. Yet, when the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus back up onto the earth to warn his brothers so that they didn't come to that same place of torment, Abraham said they have Moses and the prophets to warn them, I.e. there's no going back from that place to warn anyone.

I would also add that, there were angels that were put into Tartaroo until the day of judgment (2 Pet.2:4, Jude 1:6) and I am sure that they are still there. And that because God said that they would remain their until the day of judgment. We also have the beast, that angel who is currently in the Abyss. He hasn't been able to escape. When Satan is thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years, he will not be able to escape.

But what does escaping from the lake of fire have to do with annihilation vs. eternal conscious punishment?
 
CS1

CS1

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#62
May 23, 2012
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#62
LW97 said:
How do you explain Psalm 139 then? This could leave room for another interpretation that hell is more a state than a place. I am only convinced that Universalism is false, but overall the answer seems to be less clear.
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I disagree Ps 139 is in context to one having a relationship with God who Eternal presence Will never leave the Righteous. Jesus said it was a place, not a state of being in a subconscious way. Jesus said Hell was a place prepared for the devil and his angels the word State of speaking mainly of one's physical being. Jesus said Hell is the state of an eternal being. Jesus was clear enough and HE is authoritative on any topic where HE is speaking. Jesus said Hell is a place. The context of Hell is a place of eternal damnation Where God has chosen Not to see you, hear you, or speak to you Forever.

That is hell I do not care to see or weaken its context as the word of God and the Lord said it is.
 
LW97

LW97

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#63
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#63
CS1 said:
I disagree Ps 139 is in context to one having a relationship with God who Eternal presence Will never leave the Righteous. Jesus said it was a place, not a state of being in a subconscious way. Jesus said Hell was a place prepared for the devil and his angels the word State of speaking mainly of one's physical being. Jesus said Hell is the state of an eternal being. Jesus was clear enough and HE is authoritative on any topic where HE is speaking. Jesus said Hell is a place. The context of Hell is a place of eternal damnation Where God has chosen Not to see you, hear you, or speak to you Forever.

That is hell I do not care to see or weaken its context as the word of God and the Lord said it is.
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Which hell? Sheol, Gehenna or Hades? If you refer to Mark 9:43-48, you will see he quoted the last Verse of Isaiah 66.

Ahwatukee said:
Do you actually think that God is incapable of keeping people in punishment, as though He would not know if they escaped? If that were true, then there would be a possibility for those currently in Sheol/Hades to escape.
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Yet, the Lake of Fire is a very different place. Plus, I see many Verses in the Old Testament that seem to state that the dead are unconcious until they will be resurrected and judged. I could be wrong, but I can see a lot of evidence.
 
CS1

CS1

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#64
May 23, 2012
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#64
LW97 said:

It does not say "those who cry out". It simply says:
"but your iniquities have separated between you and your God,
and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. "
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FYI those who cry out is the same as those He will not hear those who cry. really?
 
LW97

LW97

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#65
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#65
Ahwatukee said:
Do you actually think that God is incapable of keeping people in punishment, as though He would not know if they escaped?
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How is "would be God, who commanded us to be merciful, torment people forever?" philosphical, but not this question you just asked?
 
LW97

LW97

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#66
Apr 10, 2018
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#66
CS1 said:
FYI those who cry out is the same as those He will not hear those who cry. really?
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Depends on how we define "cry out". Those who do not wish to be saved from their sins and to stop sinning do not really cry out.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#67
Mar 12, 2015
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#67
CS1 said:
I disagree Ps 139 is in context to one having a relationship with God who Eternal presence Will never leave the Righteous. Jesus said it was a place, not a state of being in a subconscious way. Jesus said Hell was a place prepared for the devil and his angels the word State of speaking mainly of one's physical being. Jesus said Hell is the state of an eternal being. Jesus was clear enough and HE is authoritative on any topic where HE is speaking. Jesus said Hell is a place. The context of Hell is a place of eternal damnation Where God has chosen Not to see you, hear you, or speak to you Forever.

That is hell I do not care to see or weaken its context as the word of God and the Lord said it is.
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I would also add that though the lake of fire will be terrible as a place of punishment, being completely separated from God our creator, would be the worse part of the punishment. I believe that even unbelievers still have some of the nature of God in them that they are not aware of. But when that final separation of the wicked takes place, I believe there will be a great void, emptiness, hopelessness, eternal loss of what could have been.
 
LW97

LW97

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#68
Apr 10, 2018
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#68
Ahwatukee said:
I would also add that though the lake of fire will be terrible as a place of punishment, being completely separated from God our creator, would be the worse part of the punishment. I believe that even unbelievers still have some of the nature of God in them that they are not aware of. But when that final separation of the wicked takes place, I believe there will be a great void, emptiness, hopelessness, eternal loss of what could have been.
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God commanded us to be merciful as he is merciful. Just like Universalism removes the wrath of God, eternal torment makes God a monster without mercy.
 
CS1

CS1

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#69
May 23, 2012
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#69
LW97 said:
Which hell? Sheol, Gehenna or Hades? If you refer to Mark 9:43-48, you will see he quoted the last Verse of Isaiah 66.


Yet, the Lake of Fire is a very different place. Plus, I see many Verses in the Old Testament that seem to state that the dead are unconscious until they will be resurrected and judged. I could be wrong, but I can see a lot of evidence.
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hell is the 1. underworld, grave, hell, pit = Sheol the only term I see used in the Old Testament 2. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". Jesus spoke of this place found in Matt 5:22 10:28, and eleven times in the gospels recorded Jesus used Gehenna". The Word Hade is a Greek word for Hell that Jesus also used when HE spoke to those who were not Hebrew speaking Jews But greek ones. So Jesus was able to speak on Hell to they too could understand.
 
LW97

LW97

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#70
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#70
CS1 said:
hell is the 1. underworld, grave, hell, pit = Sheol the only term I see used in the Old Testament 2. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". Jesus spoke of this place found in Matt 5:22 10:28, and eleven times in the gospels recorded Jesus used Gehenna". The Word Hade is a Greek word for Hell that Jesus also used when HE spoke to those who were not Hebrew speaking Jews But greek ones. So Jesus was able to speak on Hell to they too could understand.
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Amen to that.
 
CS1

CS1

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#71
May 23, 2012
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#71
LW97 said:
How is "would be God, who commanded us to be merciful, torment people forever?" philosphical, but not this question you just asked?
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we are to be merciful yet you nor I judge those who will be going to HELL. God is the Judge and if a person goes to hell to be tormented because they would not come to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ God is still merciful and HE told them to repent. That argument really if from an agnostic point of view " how can a loving God do that? How could one not accept HIS Son who died for us?
 
LW97

LW97

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#72
Apr 10, 2018
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#72
CS1 said:
we are to be merciful yet you nor I judge those who will be going to HELL.
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Depends. We are commanded to judge in many Verses.
 
CS1

CS1

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#73
May 23, 2012
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#73
LW97 said:
Depends. We are commanded to judge in many Verses.
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No we do not have the ability to bring eternal judgment. You can tell me to go to hell right now I can assure you I will not be going.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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#74
Mar 12, 2015
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#74
LW97 said:
Which hell? Sheol, Gehenna or Hades? If you refer to Mark 9:43-48, you will see he quoted the last Verse of Isaiah 66.


Yet, the Lake of Fire is a very different place. Plus, I see many Verses in the Old Testament that seem to state that the dead are unconcious until they will be resurrected and judged. I could be wrong, but I can see a lot of evidence.
Click to expand...
When I say Sheol/Hades both being the same place, I'm referring to the place of torment under the earth. Gehenna is another designation for the lake of fire whose location is not given, but is most likely not on the earth.

Brother, where are you getting your information from? What you are referring to is the belief in soul sleep, which also false. Consider the following:

"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

In both scriptures above, Paul is referring the death of the body. Once a believer dies their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord where they look forward to the resurrection while their spirits are in heaven. Even when Stephan was being stoned he said, "Lord, receive my spirit."

We have another of conscious awareness of the spirits after death at the opening of the 5th seal where we see the souls of those under the altar in heaven having a conversation with the Lord and who are given white robes to wear.

We also have the information regarding the rich man and Lazarus which shows two men who died, yet their spirits went somewhere else. Lazarus' spirit went to the place of comfort/paradise in Sheol/Hades, where the rich man was in another location within sheol/hades in torment in flame. Both locations were separated by a great chasm (See Luke 16:19). This demonstrates that both of their spirits were conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. The teaching that the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable is how many have attempted to get rid of the truths contained within this information. God's word seems to be under attack on every level.
 
CS1

CS1

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#75
May 23, 2012
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#75
Annihilationism


This teaching only works when you change the words of Jesus and using other verses out of context. Human reasoning too is a ploy in this false doctrine. It question: Gods love, ability, judgment, character, and creation of the place known as Hell. the devil uses many ways to deceive here are just a few :

  • Hell is not a real place of eternal punishment
  • There is no God
  • There is no Devil
  • There is no eternal life you die and that's it
  • Jesus did not die or rose again
And many many more.
 
LW97

LW97

Senior Member
#76
Apr 10, 2018
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#76
CS1 said:
Annihilationism


This teaching only works when you change the words of Jesus and using other verses out of context. Human reasoning too is a ploy in this false doctrine. It question: Gods love, ability, judgment, character, and creation of the place known as Hell. the devil uses many ways to deceive here are just a few :

  • Hell is not a real place of eternal punishment
  • There is no God
  • There is no Devil
  • There is no eternal life you die and that's it
  • Jesus did not die or rose again
And many many more.
Click to expand...
You confuse Annihilationism with Universalism. BTW, Eternal Torment agrees with Universalism that everyone had eternal life no matter what, the only disagreement is where they have it.
I by the way decided not to use the term Annihilationism, but rather Conditionalism.
Ahwatukee said:
When I say Sheol/Hades both being the same place, I'm referring to the place of torment under the earth. Gehenna is another designation for the lake of fire whose location is not given, but is most likely not on the earth.

Brother, where are you getting your information from? What you are referring to is the belief in soul sleep, which also false. Consider the following:

"Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

In both scriptures above, Paul is referring the death of the body. Once a believer dies their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord where they look forward to the resurrection while their spirits are in heaven. Even when Stephan was being stoned he said, "Lord, receive my spirit."

We have another of conscious awareness of the spirits after death at the opening of the 5th seal where we see the souls of those under the altar in heaven having a conversation with the Lord and who are given white robes to wear.

We also have the information regarding the rich man and Lazarus which shows two men who died, yet their spirits went somewhere else. Lazarus' spirit went to the place of comfort/paradise in Sheol/Hades, where the rich man was in another location within sheol/hades in torment in flame. Both locations were separated by a great chasm (See Luke 16:19). This demonstrates that both of their spirits were conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. The teaching that the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable is how many have attempted to get rid of the truths contained within this information. God's word seems to be under attack on every level.
Click to expand...
Hello, I believe that Paul was speaking about the difference between his body on earth and in eternity. Luke 16:19-31 could be a parable, I always wonder why Abraham would be in charge of Hades. Also this sounds interesting:
"For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." Isaiah 38:18
 
LW97

LW97

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#78
Apr 10, 2018
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#78
I apologize if we discussed too much. We all seem to think we have the answer, but we may be wrong.
 
CS1

CS1

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#79
May 23, 2012
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#79
LW97 said:
You confuse Annihilationism with Universalism. BTW, Eternal Torment agrees with Universalism that everyone had eternal life no matter what, the only disagreement is where they have it.
I by the way decided not to use the term Annihilationism, but rather Conditionalism.

Hello, I believe that Paul was speaking about the difference between his body on earth and in eternity. Luke 16:19-31 could be a parable, I always wonder why Abraham would be in charge of Hades. Also this sounds interesting:
"For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth." Isaiah 38:18
Click to expand...
both are of the same side coin but one there is no eternal hell torment the other everyone is saved. Both are unbiblical
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#80
Mar 12, 2015
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#80
LW97 said:
God commanded us to be merciful as he is merciful. Just like Universalism removes the wrath of God, eternal torment makes God a monster without mercy.
Click to expand...
And you are correct, we should be merciful and compassionate towards others. However, this idea that God can only express His love, mercy and grace and not His righteous judgment, is just another false teaching straight from Satan. People seem to look at God as a cosmic teddy bear who couldn't possibly hurt anyone.

God's grace and His mercy are in operation while a person is alive, i.e. while alive they have the invitation of salvation through faith in Jesus. But, once a person dies without faith in Christ, God's grace and His mercy are no longer in operation for those who die in that state. You've heard the saying about the judge throwing the book at you? Well, that is exactly what is going to happen! Those who die without Christ will be held accountable for every idle word they ever spoke, every sinful thought and every sinful act. For the believer, Christ was held accountable for all of our sins. Paid in full for those who trust in Him as the One who paid the penalty for their sins.
 
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