My response to nwl regarding Hebrews 1:1,2 and other issues.

Funny, I was reading something of Spurgeon on this, this exact morning! and it opened my mind. I had read this verse before but it did not click (I’m new!)

“Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/111/gen.3.8.niv

Maybe I’m not following but reading Genesis I see Jesus himself walking and talking... He is the one who breathed life into Adam, made coverings for them, etc.

That is correct, it was the preincarnated Jesus Christ. Can you please tell me how you became a Christian, how long now and what church are you affiliated with? You can just give me the short version. Thanks!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Alright *high five*
Grew up in a Christian family (parents are solid), protestant, attended non-denominational church (to be honest the variations still confuse me...). Got “saved” young, was on fire but cooled. Had health scare, kicked my vices, then came back ~2 months ago. Spouse and I are looking for a church to call home.

I was unable to post my reply to nwl on the other thread so I decided to just start another thread with my response.

Ok nwl, you now have my full attention so I will be addressing some of the things you stated. Notice the very first word at Hebrews 1:1. It is "God" and then it says, "after He/God spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways." First of all keep in mind that the Old Testament saints did not have the "FULL" revelation of God according to Romans 16:24-25.

In other words, God earlier spoke through the prophets etc, but now He has spoken through His Son Jesus because Jesus is a greater messenger than the prophets? This is backed up by what Jude said at vs3, "Beloved while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation,. I felt it necessity to write to you appealing that you earnestly contend for the faith WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIEVERED TO THE SAINTS."

Now, you ask me the following question? "When Hebrews 1:1,2 states the Father created the world through his son, who should rightly be labelled the originator or source of creation, (A) the person who creates the world through someone, or (B) the person the Father uses to create all things through?"

Since you teach that Jesus is Himself a created creature what role did He play in creation (or what did He create) since I gave you Isaiah 44:24 where God says, "I, the Lord am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." So how do you reconcile that with the question your asking me? You even said words have meaning in their context so since God created alone and by Himself, where does Jesus Christ fit in? You see nwl, I know where Jesus fits in because I know how to reconcile this apparent contradiction.

Here's my question? Is the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16 the same "being" who literally and physically appeared to Abraham claiming to be the Lord God Almighty multiplying Abrahams descendants at Genesis 17:1,2?

Now, you ask me the following question? "When Hebrews 1:1,2 states the Father created the world through his son, who should rightly be labelled the originator or source of creation, (A) the person who creates the world through someone, or (B) the person the Father uses to create all things through?"

Firstly if you read the later verses of Genesis 16 we see that the "Angel of Yahweh" is addressed as God himself, "Then she [Hagar] called on the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her: “You are a God of sight"" (Gen 16:13). Again, these Angels acted and spoke on behalf of God but were not God himself, they spoke as if they were God, and were spoken to as if they were God, but they themselves were not God but Angels, and merely acted as a messenger for God. Just to let you know the Hebrew term for "angel" is "malek", malek in Hebrew means "messenger", the literal translation of the term is "Malek Yahweh" or "Angel of Yahweh" is "messenger of Yahweh", research the Hebrew and you will see this to be true.

From what you have said above we are in agreement here, "God" -the Father- in Hebrews 1:1 spoke by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways in the OT but spoke through his son in the NT times.


When God was speaking in Isaiah chapter 44 the context shows he was speaking regarding the false gods of the surrounding nations of the Jews, when he made such comments such as "I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?" they need to be read within the confines of the context of YHWH challenging the said false gods. Read the entire chapter of Isaiah 44 (Isaiah 44:6-10 in particular) and you will see that YHWH is clearly addressing and challenging other false and made up gods to make themselves known. What YHWH was NOT doing and what is often read into the text is that God was saying he was literally completely alone when making the world, again, he was alone in the sense that none of these false gods were with him. We know God was not alone when God created the earth because Job 38:4,7 says, in regards to Angels, that they rejoiced when the Earth was made, so how could YHWH be alone if the Angel were with him. I will post parts of the chapter so you can see the context in action somewhat:

(Isaiah 44:6-10) "..This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me. 7 Who is there like me? Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me! From the time I established the people of long ago, Let them tell both the things to come And what will yet happen. 8 Do not be in dread, And do not become paralyzed with fear. Have I not told each of you beforehand and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none.’” 9 All who form carved images amount to nothing, And their cherished objects will be of no benefit. As their witnesses, they see nothing and know nothing, So those who made them will be put to shame. 10 Who would form a god or cast a metal image That can bring no benefit?....24 This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, Who formed you since you were in the womb: “I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?.."

As Hebrews 1:1 states God -that God being the Father since the context of Heb 1:1 shows the God did things by means of "his Son"- created the world through his son Jesus. The same way an architect builds a house through a builder is the same way YHWH the architect/originator created the world through his "master worker" or builder Jesus (see Pro 8:22,30). Things are from the Father and through Jesus as 1 Cor 8:6 states, both Jesus and the Father played a part in creation as is evident in scripture (John 1:3) but it cannot be dismissed that according to 1 Cor 8:6 and Hebrews 1:1,2 that the Father is the true source and originator of creation whereas Jesus is the agent through whom he created all things.



To answer your question, I do not know. The term "Angel" of Yahweh to me refers to one of Gods myriads of spirit sons that acted as a spokesperson or representative of God. Whether God used a different Angel to convey this message I couldn't say since the scriptures do not allude to the matter, all I know is that it cannot be Jesus since God started using Jesus to speak at the NT times, hence Hebrews 1:1.

I think the argument or point you are making -and correct me if I'm wrong- is that since an "Angel of Yahweh" appeared to Hagar (Gen 169 and told her "I will" multiply your seed, and a different verse (Genesis 17:1,2) has Yahweh God almighty saying to Abraham "I will" multiply your seed that the "Angel of Yahweh" is the same person as Yahweh because of the two usages of "I will".

Firstly if you read the later verses of Genesis 16 we see that the "Angel of Yahweh" is addressed as God himself, "Then she [Hagar] called on the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her: “You are a God of sight"" (Gen 16:13). Again, these Angels acted and spoke on behalf of God but were not God himself, they spoke as if they were God, and were spoken to as if they were God, but they themselves were not God but Angels, and merely acted as a messenger for God. Just to let you know the Hebrew term for "angel" is "malek", malek in Hebrew means "messenger", the literal translation of the term is "Malek Yahweh" or "Angel of Yahweh" is "messenger of Yahweh", research the Hebrew and you will see this to be true.

Strong's Concordance
malak: a messenger
Original Word: מֲלְאָךְ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: malak
Phonetic Spelling: (mal-awk')

Hi nwl. I know full well the context but how does the context "preclude" God saying at Isaiah 44:24, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things. Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth all alone." So, my question still stands?

If Jesus Christ is a created being according to you which means He did not preexist before He was born as a man then why is He "clearly" identified as the Agent/creator at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14? I know you said in this post you gave the example of how an architect builds a house etc. But again, you trying to somehow "jackhammer" Jesus Christ having some sort of hand in this when God explicitly says He did it alone and by Himself.

There is only one way to reconcile this and that is that Jesus Christ is God the creator. And as for Proverbs 8 look what vs1 states, "Does not widom call, And understanding lift up "HER" head. Or vs2, On top of the heights beside the way, where the paths meet "SHE" take "HER" stand." Proverbs 8, especially vs 22 is not about Jesus Christ being created as the Jw's and others teach.

Do you know what the definition of widom is? It's basically using good judgment. In other words, God uses good judgment in everything single thing He does. This includes He was wise in sending His only begotten Son for our benefit by dying for the sins of the world. Look here at 1 Corinthians 1:24, "but to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and THE WISDOM OF GOD."

Now, regarding "the" angel of the Lord. The word for angel in Hebrew is "malak" it can mean an actual angel or messenger, depending on the context. For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord whom yo seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the "MALAK/MESSENGER" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold He is comings, says the Lord of hosts."

This verse is loaded with information but the "angel/messenger" who will prepare the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. John is not an angel but a human being/messenger for the Lord. In fact, the prophe "Malachi" who is also a human being, well his name comes from the Hebrew word "malak."

So, what people do (just like you did) was assume that the angel of the Lord is just that, an acutal angel acting on behalf of God. The Jews have a word for that as well which is a "shilach" I'm going to cut to the chase so to speak by going to Genesis 22 where God told Abraham to sacrifice his only begotten son.

At vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him/Abraham from the heavens, and said, Abraham, Abraham!" And he said , Here I am." vs12, "Do not stretchout your had against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know tha tyou fear God since you have not withheld your son your only son from ME."

Now to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because you have OBEYED MY VOICE."

So some questions? Why does the angel of the Lord call out of the heavens to Abaham when I can show you verses where God calls out of the heavens Himself? Why use the angel of the Lord? If the angel of the Lord is just that an angel, do you really think that God would allow Abraham to sacrifice his son to an actual angel?

Now, I'm going to close for now but I will give you absolut proof postive that the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ before He incarnated as a man. And yes, I know you said the word incarnation is not in the Bible. Also notice the same statements about God multiplying Abrahams' decendants not only here but also at Genesis 16:10 and at Genesis 17:1,2.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
tp

Hi nwl. I know full well the context but how does the context "preclude" God saying at Isaiah 44:24, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things. Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth all alone." So, my question still stands?

If Jesus Christ is a created being according to you which means He did not preexist before He was born as a man then why is He "clearly" identified as the Agent/creator at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14? I know you said in this post you gave the example of how an architect builds a house etc. But again, you trying to somehow "jackhammer" Jesus Christ having some sort of hand in this when God explicitly says He did it alone and by Himself.

There is only one way to reconcile this and that is that Jesus Christ is God the creator. And as for Proverbs 8 look what vs1 states, "Does not widom call, And understanding lift up "HER" head. Or vs2, On top of the heights beside the way, where the paths meet "SHE" take "HER" stand." Proverbs 8, especially vs 22 is not about Jesus Christ being created as the Jw's and others teach.

Do you know what the definition of widom is? It's basically using good judgment. In other words, God uses good judgment in everything single thing He does. This includes He was wise in sending His only begotten Son for our benefit by dying for the sins of the world. Look here at 1 Corinthians 1:24, "but to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and THE WISDOM OF GOD."

Now, regarding "the" angel of the Lord. The word for angel in Hebrew is "malak" it can mean an actual angel or messenger, depending on the context. For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord whom yo seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the "MALAK/MESSENGER" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold He is comings, says the Lord of hosts."

This verse is loaded with information but the "angel/messenger" who will prepare the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. John is not an angel but a human being/messenger for the Lord. In fact, the prophe "Malachi" who is also a human being, well his name comes from the Hebrew word "malak."

So, what people do (just like you did) was assume that the angel of the Lord is just that, an acutal angel acting on behalf of God. The Jews have a word for that as well which is a "shilach" I'm going to cut to the chase so to speak by going to Genesis 22 where God told Abraham to sacrifice his only begotten son.

At vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him/Abraham from the heavens, and said, Abraham, Abraham!" And he said , Here I am." vs12, "Do not stretchout your had against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know tha tyou fear God since you have not withheld your son your only son from ME."

Now to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because you have OBEYED MY VOICE."

So some questions? Why does the angel of the Lord call out of the heavens to Abaham when I can show you verses where God calls out of the heavens Himself? Why use the angel of the Lord? If the angel of the Lord is just that an angel, do you really think that God would allow Abraham to sacrifice his son to an actual angel?

Why can't God act as His own messenger? He did when He talked to Hagar. He did when He talk to Abraham in Gen. 22:18,19: and was described as an angel. The same thing with Moses from the burning bush Exo. 3:2.