My response to nwl regarding Hebrews 1:1,2 and other issues.

bluto · Jun 18, 2019

I was unable to post my reply to nwl on the other thread so I decided to just start another thread with my response.

Ok nwl, you now have my full attention so I will be addressing some of the things you stated. Notice the very first word at Hebrews 1:1. It is "God" and then it says, "after He/God spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways." First of all keep in mind that the Old Testament saints did not have the "FULL" revelation of God according to Romans 16:24-25.

In other words, God earlier spoke through the prophets etc, but now He has spoken through His Son Jesus because Jesus is a greater messenger than the prophets? This is backed up by what Jude said at vs3, "Beloved while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation,. I felt it necessity to write to you appealing that you earnestly contend for the faith WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIEVERED TO THE SAINTS."

Now, you ask me the following question? "When Hebrews 1:1,2 states the Father created the world through his son, who should rightly be labelled the originator or source of creation, (A) the person who creates the world through someone, or (B) the person the Father uses to create all things through?"

Since you teach that Jesus is Himself a created creature what role did He play in creation (or what did He create) since I gave you Isaiah 44:24 where God says, "I, the Lord am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." So how do you reconcile that with the question your asking me? You even said words have meaning in their context so since God created alone and by Himself, where does Jesus Christ fit in? You see nwl, I know where Jesus fits in because I know how to reconcile this apparent contradiction.

I also ask you to think about the angel of the Lord issue in which you responded by saying Jesus was part of the group etc. That's right, remember I said the first word at Hebrews 1:1 is "God." So where else did God personally speak to the OT saints? Remember I stated that the angel of the Lord first appears as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7. This is what He says to Hagar at vs9. "Then the angel of the Lord said to her, Return to your mistress and submit yourself to her, "I WILL greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count." Notice it says, " I Will" and not "GOD WILL" multiply your descendants.

Now look at Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD APPEARED to Abraham and said to him, "I am God Almighty, Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, AND I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY YOU EXCEEDINGLY."

Here's my question? Is the angel of the Lord that multiplied Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16 the same "being" who literally and physically appeared to Abraham claiming to be the Lord God Almighty multiplying Abrahams descendants at Genesis 17:1,2?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Skyline · Jun 18, 2019

Funny, I was reading something of Spurgeon on this, this exact morning! and it opened my mind. I had read this verse before but it did not click

(I’m new!)

“Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/111/gen.3.8.niv

bluto · Jun 18, 2019

Skyline said:

Well that's good skyline, and welcome to the Christian forums. Also stay tuned because all of this will get a lot more "enlighting" as to the identity of the angel of the Lord. Care to take a guess? And if you have any questions now I will be more than happy to address them.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Skyline · Jun 18, 2019

Maybe I’m not following but reading Genesis I see Jesus himself walking and talking... He is the one who breathed life into Adam, made coverings for them, etc. I don’t know how God the Father could walk and make noise. Am I missing something?

bluto · Jun 18, 2019

Skyline said:

That is correct, it was the preincarnated Jesus Christ. Can you please tell me how you became a Christian, how long now and what church are you affiliated with? You can just give me the short version. Thanks!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

eternally-gratefull · Jun 18, 2019

Is 48:
“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”

1. This tells you who the “lord was
2. And it shows. He was sent by the father (lord God) and his spirit (Holy Spirit)
3. There can only be one answer as to who this is. The pre-incarnate Lord Jesus

Skyline · Jun 18, 2019

bluto said:

Alright *high five*
Grew up in a Christian family (parents are solid), protestant, attended non-denominational church (to be honest the variations still confuse me...). Got “saved” young, was on fire but cooled. Had health scare, kicked my vices, then came back ~2 months ago.

Spouse and I are looking for a church to call home.

bluto · Jun 18, 2019

Skyline said:

That's great, that you came back because Jesus always brings His sheep back home when they wonder off. I personally attend a Calvary Chapel church if that will help, I know they are pretty solid. If you want to know about the angel of the Lord please read (slowly like you would read a story in a novel) Genesis 16, 17 and Genesis 18. See if you can make some connections and notice the reactions of Hagar and Abraham.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

NWL · Jun 27, 2019

bluto said:

From what you have said above we are in agreement here, "God" -the Father- in Hebrews 1:1 spoke by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways in the OT but spoke through his son in the NT times.

When God was speaking in Isaiah chapter 44 the context shows he was speaking regarding the false gods of the surrounding nations of the Jews, when he made such comments such as "I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?" they need to be read within the confines of the context of YHWH challenging the said false gods. Read the entire chapter of Isaiah 44 (Isaiah 44:6-10 in particular) and you will see that YHWH is clearly addressing and challenging other false and made up gods to make themselves known. What YHWH was NOT doing and what is often read into the text is that God was saying he was literally completely alone when making the world, again, he was alone in the sense that none of these false gods were with him. We know God was not alone when God created the earth because Job 38:4,7 says, in regards to Angels, that they rejoiced when the Earth was made, so how could YHWH be alone if the Angel were with him. I will post parts of the chapter so you can see the context in action somewhat:

(Isaiah 44:6-10) "..This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me. 7 Who is there like me? Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me! From the time I established the people of long ago, Let them tell both the things to come And what will yet happen. 8 Do not be in dread, And do not become paralyzed with fear. Have I not told each of you beforehand and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none.’” 9 All who form carved images amount to nothing, And their cherished objects will be of no benefit. As their witnesses, they see nothing and know nothing, So those who made them will be put to shame. 10 Who would form a god or cast a metal image That can bring no benefit?....24 This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, Who formed you since you were in the womb: “I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?.."

As Hebrews 1:1 states God -that God being the Father since the context of Heb 1:1 shows the God did things by means of "his Son"- created the world through his son Jesus. The same way an architect builds a house through a builder is the same way YHWH the architect/originator created the world through his "master worker" or builder Jesus (see Pro 8:22,30). Things are from the Father and through Jesus as 1 Cor 8:6 states, both Jesus and the Father played a part in creation as is evident in scripture (John 1:3) but it cannot be dismissed that according to 1 Cor 8:6 and Hebrews 1:1,2 that the Father is the true source and originator of creation whereas Jesus is the agent through whom he created all things.

To answer your question, I do not know. The term "Angel" of Yahweh to me refers to one of Gods myriads of spirit sons that acted as a spokesperson or representative of God. Whether God used a different Angel to convey this message I couldn't say since the scriptures do not allude to the matter, all I know is that it cannot be Jesus since God started using Jesus to speak at the NT times, hence Hebrews 1:1.

I think the argument or point you are making -and correct me if I'm wrong- is that since an "Angel of Yahweh" appeared to Hagar (Gen 169

and told her "I will" multiply your seed, and a different verse (Genesis 17:1,2) has Yahweh God almighty saying to Abraham "I will" multiply your seed that the "Angel of Yahweh" is the same person as Yahweh because of the two usages of "I will".

Firstly if you read the later verses of Genesis 16 we see that the "Angel of Yahweh" is addressed as God himself, "Then she [Hagar] called on the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her: “You are a God of sight"" (Gen 16:13). Again, these Angels acted and spoke on behalf of God but were not God himself, they spoke as if they were God, and were spoken to as if they were God, but they themselves were not God but Angels, and merely acted as a messenger for God. Just to let you know the Hebrew term for "angel" is "malek", malek in Hebrew means "messenger", the literal translation of the term is "Malek Yahweh" or "Angel of Yahweh" is "messenger of Yahweh", research the Hebrew and you will see this to be true.

Strong's Concordance
malak: a messenger
Original Word: מֲלְאָךְ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: malak
Phonetic Spelling: (mal-awk')
Definition: a messenger
----------------------------------
NASB Translation
ambassadors (2), angel (101), angels (9), envoys (1), messenger (24), messengers (76).

Sipsey · Jun 27, 2019

There is one “The” angel of God, there are many angels of God. Both the original language and context differentiate.

Nehemiah6 · Jun 27, 2019

bluto said:

Well the answer is simplicity itself.

The universe was created by THE GODHEAD (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but the Word (jJesus) who is God was assigned to be THE CREATOR within the Godhead. Why should this be a problem for anyone, unless he wants to create problems for himself?

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Rom 1:19,20)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made [created] by him; and without him was not any thing made [created] that was made [created]. (John 1:1-3)

Deade · Jun 27, 2019

NWL said:

Why can't God act as His own messenger? He did when He talked to Hagar. He did when He talk to Abraham in Gen. 22:18,19: and was described as an angel. The same thing with Moses from the burning bush Exo. 3:2.

bluto · Jun 28, 2019

NWL said:

From what you have said above we are in agreement here, "God" -the Father- in Hebrews 1:1 spoke by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways in the OT but spoke through his son in the NT times.

When God was speaking in Isaiah chapter 44 the context shows he was speaking regarding the false gods of the surrounding nations of the Jews, when he made such comments such as "I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?" they need to be read within the confines of the context of YHWH challenging the said false gods. Read the entire chapter of Isaiah 44 (Isaiah 44:6-10 in particular) and you will see that YHWH is clearly addressing and challenging other false and made up gods to make themselves known. What YHWH was NOT doing and what is often read into the text is that God was saying he was literally completely alone when making the world, again, he was alone in the sense that none of these false gods were with him. We know God was not alone when God created the earth because Job 38:4,7 says, in regards to Angels, that they rejoiced when the Earth was made, so how could YHWH be alone if the Angel were with him. I will post parts of the chapter so you can see the context in action somewhat:

(Isaiah 44:6-10) "..This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me. 7 Who is there like me? Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me! From the time I established the people of long ago, Let them tell both the things to come And what will yet happen. 8 Do not be in dread, And do not become paralyzed with fear. Have I not told each of you beforehand and declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there any God but me? No, there is no other Rock; I know of none.’” 9 All who form carved images amount to nothing, And their cherished objects will be of no benefit. As their witnesses, they see nothing and know nothing, So those who made them will be put to shame. 10 Who would form a god or cast a metal image That can bring no benefit?....24 This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, Who formed you since you were in the womb: “I am Jehovah, who made everything. I stretched out the heavens by myself, And I spread out the earth. Who was with me?.."

As Hebrews 1:1 states God -that God being the Father since the context of Heb 1:1 shows the God did things by means of "his Son"- created the world through his son Jesus. The same way an architect builds a house through a builder is the same way YHWH the architect/originator created the world through his "master worker" or builder Jesus (see Pro 8:22,30). Things are from the Father and through Jesus as 1 Cor 8:6 states, both Jesus and the Father played a part in creation as is evident in scripture (John 1:3) but it cannot be dismissed that according to 1 Cor 8:6 and Hebrews 1:1,2 that the Father is the true source and originator of creation whereas Jesus is the agent through whom he created all things.

To answer your question, I do not know. The term "Angel" of Yahweh to me refers to one of Gods myriads of spirit sons that acted as a spokesperson or representative of God. Whether God used a different Angel to convey this message I couldn't say since the scriptures do not allude to the matter, all I know is that it cannot be Jesus since God started using Jesus to speak at the NT times, hence Hebrews 1:1.

I think the argument or point you are making -and correct me if I'm wrong- is that since an "Angel of Yahweh" appeared to Hagar (Gen 169

and told her "I will" multiply your seed, and a different verse (Genesis 17:1,2) has Yahweh God almighty saying to Abraham "I will" multiply your seed that the "Angel of Yahweh" is the same person as Yahweh because of the two usages of "I will".

Firstly if you read the later verses of Genesis 16 we see that the "Angel of Yahweh" is addressed as God himself, "Then she [Hagar] called on the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her: “You are a God of sight"" (Gen 16:13). Again, these Angels acted and spoke on behalf of God but were not God himself, they spoke as if they were God, and were spoken to as if they were God, but they themselves were not God but Angels, and merely acted as a messenger for God. Just to let you know the Hebrew term for "angel" is "malek", malek in Hebrew means "messenger", the literal translation of the term is "Malek Yahweh" or "Angel of Yahweh" is "messenger of Yahweh", research the Hebrew and you will see this to be true.

Strong's Concordance
malak: a messenger
Original Word: מֲלְאָךְ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: malak
Phonetic Spelling: (mal-awk')

Hi nwl. I know full well the context but how does the context "preclude" God saying at Isaiah 44:24, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things. Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth all alone." So, my question still stands?

If Jesus Christ is a created being according to you which means He did not preexist before He was born as a man then why is He "clearly" identified as the Agent/creator at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14? I know you said in this post you gave the example of how an architect builds a house etc. But again, you trying to somehow "jackhammer" Jesus Christ having some sort of hand in this when God explicitly says He did it alone and by Himself.

There is only one way to reconcile this and that is that Jesus Christ is God the creator. And as for Proverbs 8 look what vs1 states, "Does not widom call, And understanding lift up "HER" head. Or vs2, On top of the heights beside the way, where the paths meet "SHE" take "HER" stand." Proverbs 8, especially vs 22 is not about Jesus Christ being created as the Jw's and others teach.

Do you know what the definition of widom is? It's basically using good judgment. In other words, God uses good judgment in everything single thing He does. This includes He was wise in sending His only begotten Son for our benefit by dying for the sins of the world. Look here at 1 Corinthians 1:24, "but to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and THE WISDOM OF GOD."

Now, regarding "the" angel of the Lord. The word for angel in Hebrew is "malak" it can mean an actual angel or messenger, depending on the context. For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord whom yo seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the "MALAK/MESSENGER" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold He is comings, says the Lord of hosts."

This verse is loaded with information but the "angel/messenger" who will prepare the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. John is not an angel but a human being/messenger for the Lord. In fact, the prophe "Malachi" who is also a human being, well his name comes from the Hebrew word "malak."

So, what people do (just like you did) was assume that the angel of the Lord is just that, an acutal angel acting on behalf of God. The Jews have a word for that as well which is a "shilach" I'm going to cut to the chase so to speak by going to Genesis 22 where God told Abraham to sacrifice his only begotten son.

At vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him/Abraham from the heavens, and said, Abraham, Abraham!" And he said , Here I am." vs12, "Do not stretchout your had against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know tha tyou fear God since you have not withheld your son your only son from ME."

Now to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because you have OBEYED MY VOICE."

So some questions? Why does the angel of the Lord call out of the heavens to Abaham when I can show you verses where God calls out of the heavens Himself? Why use the angel of the Lord? If the angel of the Lord is just that an angel, do you really think that God would allow Abraham to sacrifice his son to an actual angel?

Now, I'm going to close for now but I will give you absolut proof postive that the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ before He incarnated as a man. And yes, I know you said the word incarnation is not in the Bible. Also notice the same statements about God multiplying Abrahams' decendants not only here but also at Genesis 16:10 and at Genesis 17:1,2.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
tp

bluto · Jun 28, 2019

Hi nwl. I know full well the context but how does the context "preclude" God saying at Isaiah 44:24, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things. Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth all alone." So, my question still stands?

If Jesus Christ is a created being according to you which means He did not preexist before He was born as a man then why is He "clearly" identified as the Agent/creator at John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14? I know you said in this post you gave the example of how an architect builds a house etc. But again, you trying to somehow "jackhammer" Jesus Christ having some sort of hand in this when God explicitly says He did it alone and by Himself.

There is only one way to reconcile this and that is that Jesus Christ is God the creator. And as for Proverbs 8 look what vs1 states, "Does not widom call, And understanding lift up "HER" head. Or vs2, On top of the heights beside the way, where the paths meet "SHE" take "HER" stand." Proverbs 8, especially vs 22 is not about Jesus Christ being created as the Jw's and others teach.

Do you know what the definition of widom is? It's basically using good judgment. In other words, God uses good judgment in everything single thing He does. This includes He was wise in sending His only begotten Son for our benefit by dying for the sins of the world. Look here at 1 Corinthians 1:24, "but to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and THE WISDOM OF GOD."

Now, regarding "the" angel of the Lord. The word for angel in Hebrew is "malak" it can mean an actual angel or messenger, depending on the context. For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold I am going to send My "malak/angel/messenger, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord whom yo seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the "MALAK/MESSENGER" of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold He is comings, says the Lord of hosts."

This verse is loaded with information but the "angel/messenger" who will prepare the way of the Lord is none other than John the Baptist. John is not an angel but a human being/messenger for the Lord. In fact, the prophe "Malachi" who is also a human being, well his name comes from the Hebrew word "malak."

So, what people do (just like you did) was assume that the angel of the Lord is just that, an acutal angel acting on behalf of God. The Jews have a word for that as well which is a "shilach" I'm going to cut to the chase so to speak by going to Genesis 22 where God told Abraham to sacrifice his only begotten son.

At vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him/Abraham from the heavens, and said, Abraham, Abraham!" And he said , Here I am." vs12, "Do not stretchout your had against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know tha tyou fear God since you have not withheld your son your only son from ME."

Now to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son. vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Vs18, "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because you have OBEYED MY VOICE."

So some questions? Why does the angel of the Lord call out of the heavens to Abaham when I can show you verses where God calls out of the heavens Himself? Why use the angel of the Lord? If the angel of the Lord is just that an angel, do you really think that God would allow Abraham to sacrifice his son to an actual angel?

Now, I'm going to close for now but I will give you absolut proof postive that the angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ before He incarnated as a man. And yes, I know you said the word incarnation is not in the Bible. Also notice the same statements about God multiplying Abrahams' decendants not only here but also at Genesis 16:10 and at Genesis 17:1,2.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
tp

NWL · Jul 1, 2019

bluto said:

You misunderstand my position, I do not believe Jesus life started on earth, I believe Jesus life started prior to earth and that he was the first thing ever created by the Father. I believer the Father was alone and then created Jesus, the Father then created all things through Jesus.

You still ask the question of Jesus if he was a sperate person from the Father helped create things if the scriptures say that God streched out the heavens by himself and was spreading out the earth all alone. It seems you keep ignoring my reasoning I give in explanation to this so have no other option to ask questions to try and make you understand my point.

The Isaiah 44 states that God was alone when creating the earth as you have stated many times, yet Job 38:4,7 states that the Angels "shouted in appaulse" when the earth was created indicating that God was not alone. My question to you is was God alone when he created the earth as Isaiah 44 says or was he with the Angels as Job 38:4,7 says?

Again you say Jesus is creator yet you have yet to answer my original question, if 1 Cor 8:6 states that all things are from the Father and only through Jesus who is the creator, the one whom things are from or the one whom things are through.

If you receive a letter from a King but it is given to you verbally through a delivery man who is the orginator of that message, the one whom it is from or the one who it is through?

It is your assumption that I have assumed. You and I both agree that "Malak" means messenger, I've never once said it relates only to angelic beings, since as you showed it can refer to human men or anyone God uses as a messenger. However the context of all the encounter where "malak YHWH" speak with men from my understanding relates to Angelic beings.

If Jesus is YHWH and he is the Malak/messenger of YHWH then he can't be YHWH himself. You can't be both YHWH and the messenger of YHWH since being a messenger of someone implies you are not that one. Suggesting Jesus is YHWH and the messenger or YHWH is butchering and twisting language as a whole.

As I explained before, the messenger of God are his representative, hence they speak as if they are God himself since they are not speaking their own words but Gods. We see this writing style and understanding throughout the bible, for example answer me, in the two following accounts of the same incident who is the speaker, the Army officer of the elder of the Jews:

(Luke 7:2-9) "..Now an army officer’s slave, who was dear to him, was seriously ill and about to pass away. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent some elders of the Jews to him to ask him to come and make his slave well. 4 They came up to Jesus and began to plead with him earnestly...So Jesus went with them. But when he was not far from the house, the army officer had already sent friends to say to him: “Sir, do not bother, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and let my servant be healed. 8 For I too am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 9 When Jesus heard these things, he was amazed at him, and he turned to the crowd following him and said: “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found so great a faith.”.."

(Matthew 8:5-10) "..When he entered Ca·perʹna·um, an army officer came to him [Jesus], pleading with him 6 and saying: “Sir, my servant is laid up in the house with paralysis, and he is suffering terribly.” 7 He said to him: “When I get there, I will cure him.” 8 The army officer replied: “Sir, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but just say the word and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, having soldiers under me, and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard that, he was amazed and said to those following him: “I tell you the truth, with no one in Israel have I found so great a faith..."

Again who spoke to Jesus in person, the Army officer or the elders of the Jews?

NWL · Jul 1, 2019

Deade said:

If Jesus was his own messenger then his wasn't a messenger, since the word "messenger" implies a detachment from the source. You can't be both YHWH and the messenger of YHWH since being a messenger of someone implies you are not that one. Suggesting Jesus is YHWH and the messenger or YHWH is butchering and twisting language as a whole.

Search

My response to nwl regarding Hebrews 1:1,2 and other issues.

bluto

Senior Member

Skyline

Active member

bluto

Senior Member

Skyline

Active member

bluto

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Skyline

Active member

bluto

Senior Member

NWL

Senior Member

Sipsey

Well-known member

Nehemiah6

Senior Member

Deade

Called of God

bluto

Senior Member

bluto

Senior Member

NWL

Senior Member

NWL

Senior Member