Twinkling of an eye

I agree. Definitely in connection with Christ, but also in regards to the saints who coming out of the great tribulation receive a blessing.
Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



OK, I can agree with some of your perspective. As the Word states, the living will not precede the sleeping. They now asleep in Christ, and they who shall die in Christ during the first half of the great tribulation, shall be caught up first, while the woman and the saints still alive on the earth shall be caught up spiritually later.



You may be right about the singular; and it may be a single individual, like this Michael mentioned.
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,



The Lord gave up his days on earth circa two thousand years ago.
The Lord returns and commences to rule when the travailing woman brings forth, correlating with Revelation 12:10;...this despite the devil still having 1,260 days left to him in which he empowers the beast. I think the Lord commencing to rule in the beginning, is through and in His people; the woman and offspring. The devil will then no longer have any tempting influence over the woman and saints, and thus no longer able to accuse them day and night before the Lord.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Thats all pretty interesting about the woman,the child and the remnant.
It is a partial mystery,partial no brainer.
Some fits,some does not.

It came to me,while reading you guys posts (good exchange) that the martyrs on thrones of rev 20 are indeed resurrected early in the gt,(as they are killed),and it is a huge,huge slaughter.
I firmly believe all the saints, 10 virgins, are arrested in the first of the gt in huge holding facilities. The rapture is roughly half of that group.

It appears to me to happen quickly,with the "5 foolish" martyrs resurrected into heaven within a few months,or even days,with their bodies "disappearing"/resurrected

The illegals pouring across the us/mexico border,are birthpangs.
Huge facilities will HAVE TO BE implemented to detain them.(even the libs will eventually be forced to admit they strangled the nation)
Millions are coming.
It is end times training for the future target,believers in Jesus Christ.

Here's a very brief listing of those holding the view that "the man child" of Rev12 is "the Church [which is His body]" (which viewpoint I am also inclined toward)... fairly certain there were [/are] more, this is just a sample:

William Kelly (1870)

Charles Stanley (1800s) [not the one in Georgia, today ]

CH Mackintosh (1800s)

William E Blackstone (1904)

Harry A Ironside (1919)

Geneva Study Bible notes (?)

Dr Michael Svigel (DTS, 2014)



[just to be clear, I'm not saying these believed/believe "mid-trib rapture"--some assume that just because Rev12 is in the middle of the book that this would indicate such a thing...]

Not so Ahwatukee.

2 THESSALONIANS 1 [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, [8] In FLAMING FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be GLORIFIED in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Jesus is there during the wrath

ZEPHANIAH 1 [18] Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the FIRE of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

His wrath takes place on the Day of the Lord

REVELATION 14 [9] And the third ANGEL followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [10] The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented WITH FIRE and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB:

The Lamb will be present during the wrath

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, THE LORD WILL COME WITH FIRE, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Yup. Hes coming with fire

I believe the Lord has consistently and increasing steadily, warning to share that something is IMMINENT. Not sure what order, but soon. As in days or weeks or months.

That could include both nuclear as well as divine fire. Peter described "melting of elements" in his epistle's. Today I heard spiritually "nuclear halocaust" which was very disturbing, but must be confirmed as not being a random word. I also heard definitely the voice of the Lord saying "triumphant!" After a dream about mental/spiritual healing and celebration of freedom. Walking through a building, I saw a teenage girl alone and afraid and neglected, trembling in a room, and embraced her and led her out to freedom. It seemed to be a celebration of life, freedom, healing, and the return of Christ!"

MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

Yikes! No pretrib rapture here.

PSALM 110 [1] The LORD said unto my Lord, SIT THOU AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL. [2] The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. [3] Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. [4] The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. [5] The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in THE DAY OF HIS WRATH.

Well, ya see what the scripture says. Jesus will be at the right hand of God UNTIL His enemies are His footstool. Jesus is still there {at the fathers right hand} UNTIL His day of wrath. The Day of the Lord.

ZEPHANIAH 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [15] THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, [16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. [18] Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Yup. His day of wrath IS the Day of the Lord. Jesus will not sneak away from the Fathers right hand 7 years before the Day of the Lord and bring us to heaven as the Rapturist claim.

"the DOTL" is not a singular 24-hr day... and, for example, the Vials (7) are only said to be "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (not is started) and are called "the 7 LAST PLAGUES" (not the first [moments] of them), and which themselves take some time to unfold...


[I believe His "wrath" starts when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" when He opens SEAL #1, Rev4-5-6, at the START of the 7-yrs; and even the SECOND SEAL wars, I believe INCLUDES the Gog-Magog War where Ezek38:18-19 uses "wrath" words, and 39:7 says "so [/in this way] shall *I MAKE* My holy name KNOWN unto My people Israel..." (just like Joseph did this in the 2nd yr of his 7-yr famine, Gen45:1)]

EDIT (to correct): "and 39:7 says "so [/in this way] shall *I MAKE* My holy name KNOWN in the midst of My people Israel..." "

The other thing to consider, along with that, is the SEQUENCE of Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (with its TWO "PUNISH" words) that is parallel to Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 (the FIRST of these TWO "PUNISH" words occurring at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19)… which is consistent with what we see in the 1Cor15:24-28 passage, with v.24's "THEN [sequentially] then end" (NOTE: not "THEN [immediately] the end"... due to the specific Grk word for "THEN" being used here).

IOW, His "reign" on the earth follows His "RETURN" to the earth, and at the end of which "the last enemy [DEATH]" will be destroyed. [that is, at the time of the 2nd of the TWO "PUNISH" words, at the GWTj time slot, Rev20:11-15, esp. v.14]. This doesn't happen (for all ppl of all times) at the time of our Rapture.

Your saying the Day of the Lord begins at the start of the 7 yr tribulation period. Sorry. But no.

MARK 13 [24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In Mark you see the great tribulation period is FOLLOWED by a dark sun and dark moon. In verse 27 you even find the gathering of Gods elect {in the twinkling of an eye}

JOEL 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

At what point does one start believing the scriptures

ACTS 2[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME:

Allow me to start with your first mis-step here.

It seems as though you are reading verse 27 as saying "shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" in such a way that the "from" is where they come from and the "TO" is their DESTINATION. But that is not what this verse is saying, here. The verse is not making the point that they are being gathered FROM [all over] TO "the uttermost part of heaven" as though the "vestibule of heaven" was insufficient, and the "parlor of heaven" was insufficient, and the "kitchen of heaven" was insufficient, they must make it clear to the "uttermost part of heaven". No. This is to mis-read the point of the verse. The "destination-spot" this verse and passage is referring to is "a particular location on the earth," as this passage (along with its parallel, Matt24:29-31) is parallel to Isaiah 27:12-13, which says,

"12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [DISTINCT from the "AS ONE" which pertains to "the Church which is HIS BODY"] 13 And in that day a great trumpet [see Matt24:29-31] will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem."

[The above passage ^ parallel to Isaiah 24:21-23 passage I already mentioned, which is parallel to Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/Rev20:5 at the time of His 2nd Coming TO THE EARTH, i.e. His "RETURN" (see Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom "WITH [G4862 (UNIONED-with)]" His [already-wed] Bride/Wife!), THEN the meal! (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka the "G347 ['shall sit down' (at a meal/around a table)]" of Matt8:11 and its parallel, aka the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom].

None of the above speaks to/of/about our Rapture. WE ("the Church which is His body") will be caught up "AS ONE" [NOT "one BY one"!!] ('to the MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR') for completely distinct purposes than these who will be "gathered" BY ANGELS "He shall SEND" to do so, and "TO Jerusalem," at the "GREAT trumpet" (in every way distinct from that of passage describing our Rapture). "The DOTL" will BE PRESENT when the "man of sin" is also present, to do all he will DO over the course of those 7 yrs. And ONE THING must take place "FIRST" before it [that time period involving the man of sin] is present. (THE Departure / our Rapture)

"in the twinkling of an eye" does not pertain to this "gathered one BY one... TO/IN Jerusalem" context.

EDIT:


"in the twinkling of an eye" does not pertain to this "gathered one BY one... TO/IN Jerusalem" context.

[THAT "twinkling of an eye" passage (1Cor15:51-54) pertains to "THIS" corruptible and "THIS" mortal, specifically. The "mystery" that had, theretofore, not been disclosed as of yet... not the thing OT saints already well-knew, like Martha in John 11:24, Job in Job 19:25-27, and Daniel in Dan12:13... nope. Not that.]

...so, Mark 13:24-27, esp v. 27 (and its parallel Matt24:29-31) is simply saying they will be gathered "from the extremities" (none will be left out! [destination: the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "return" to the earth--and these in particular "to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" (like Isa27:12-13 and Isa24:21-23[/Rev19] say)])

Wrong again. At least your consistant.

1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Most Rapturist claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The 1st ressurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

I'm going to respond by quoting from three of my previous posts (different convos, different contexts of those convos) but will save me from re-typing a lot of material (let's see how much fits in this post ):

[quoting those previous posts]

Re: "resurrection"... recall the two kind mentioned in John 5:29.

--"unto the resurrection OF LIFE"

--"unto the resurrection OF DAMNATION/JUDGMENT"

____________

Explain why the Two Witnesses "ascended up to heaven" at the "6th Trumpet[events]/2nd Woe" (when after they ascend, Scripture says, "the third woe cometh quickly" and then [later] says "the seventh angel sounded [the 7th trumpet]" when [you are] saying EVERYONE/ALL SAINTS of ALL TIMES are [supposedly] to be "resurrected" at the 7th Trumpet... Why aren't THESE TWO?!? Why did THEY TWO "ascend" BEFORE that point in time? according to the "7th-Trumpet-[first-]resurrection" viewpoint [which is not my viewpoint]).

[again, my viewpoint: "[re: resurrection] but each [G1538 - Hekastos - 'each (of more than two)'--per BibleHub] IN HIS OWN ORDER" 1Cor15:23; "blessed and holy is the one having *A PART [G3313 - meros] in the first resurrection" Rev20:6... "the resurrection OF LIFE" Jn5:29--The 2W are included in this "resurrection OF LIFE" but are seen to be resurrected and ascended up to Heaven BEFORE the 7th Trumpet sounds (and so is "the Church which is His body" even earlier than that point in the chronology, which is what 1Cor15:51-54 is making a point to say, not to mention the "chronology/sequence" explanations found in passages such as 1Th and 2Th, and 2Tim4:8/Rev4:4/Rev5:9/Eph4:30)]

____________

1Cor15:23 - "[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (means there is an ORDER/SEQUENCE to it, and that there doesn't remain only a singular [so called] "general" resurrection).

1) the Resurrection OF LIFE - … JESUS 32ad (1Cor15:20 [fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON FIRSTFRUIT]):

⦁ the "many" who, as Matt27:53 says, "came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" (which I believe I already stated that I believe they represent OT saints that will [future] be "resurrected" [that is, to stand again on the earth--see the fourth entry under this section, below]--A LOT happened on this day [Jesus' Resurrection Day/FIRSTFRUIT], and this is just ONE of the things that did; another thing was His "[ACTIVE] ascension" [distinct from the 40-day-later "[passive] went up" into heaven that was VISIBLE, Acts 1:9-11 and context)

⦁ "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:19,20-23 'when'] (the "DEAD IN CHRIST" portion OF IT who HAVE DIED)--these together [DEAD IN Christ "resurrected"... ALONG WITH we which are ALIVE and remain] alone/solely are "raptured/caught up [harpagēsometha] together [AS ONE]/The Departure *FIRST*/the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR/our episynagōgēs [noun] UNTO HIM"; ...Of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," 2Th2:13 [in some translations] says "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireף] you firstfruit [aparche]"--The "hath chosen [G138 - heilato/haireף]" is a different Greek word to the usual "chosen" word used when it speaks of God's chosen/choice, and is "probably akin to" (according to some lexicons or concordances) the "G142 - airo" word ("I raise, lift up, take away, remove"); https://biblehub.com/greek/138.htm (scroll down to where it says "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" and the highlighted "airo" which will take you to THAT definition)--Again, this is the ONLY entity of which the "Rapture" pertains (not to all other saints of all other time periods--but your question has to do with "resurrection," so back to that...)

⦁ the Two Witnesses (Rev11:11-14; at the time of the 6th Trumpet [events]/2nd Woe--which I believe is approx. 3/4 of the way through the 7-yr trib, according to how I've seen the chronology--these "ascend up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them"... This, BEFORE the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe even, not to mention the Vials)

⦁ OT Saints (Daniel 12:13 "at the END of the days [the end of the days referred to in that context, vv.1,6-7, that is, AT THE END of the trib]"; I believe Job 19:25-27 shows this; I believe Matthew 8:11 and parallel indicates this, for the G347 "shall sit down" indicates the Meal, which is the promised and prophesied earthly MK; ALL saints of all times will be present there, none left out [aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"... aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, commencing upon His 'RETURN' there]"])

⦁ Saints Who Die/are Martyred in the TRIB (Rev20:4b/Rev13:15/13:7a/Dan7:20b-21)

[ALL THESE ^ are the "Blessed and holy is he that hath *A PART IN the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." Rev20:6 (they will be alive to enjoy the promised and prophesied earthly MK--no saints will be left out!)]


2) the Resurrection OF DAMNATION/JUDGMENT (Rev20:11-13--involves the "[unsaved/unrighteous] dead" of all times)

⦁ Rev20:11-15 (GWTj--eternal separation from God; second death)

⦁ Isaiah 24:21-23 (as I already mentioned, the second part of verse 22, which says, "and AFTER MANY DAYS, they shall be visited/PUNISHED" [2nd of TWO "PUNISH" words here]--this is after their initial punishment [judgment/imprisonment] back at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, 1000-yrs previous to this [these are living ppl at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19:19/16:14-16, but who are against Him, i.e. they die at this point in time... and are given the final sentence carried out at the later GWTj])

[end quoting those three previous posts]


Hope this helps.

So, Rev20:4b is just the LAST of the all those involved in the "resurrection OF LIFE" ("those having A PART in" v.6)


[there seems to be a new "5-second posting rule" now ]

The gathering of the Lords elect from the four corners of the earth to the most uttermost part of heaven in Mark 13:27, correlates with when the Lord returns with ten thousands of his saints from heaven to the earth to execute judgment upon all that are ungodly in Jude 1:14-15.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.