Twinkling of an eye

TheDivineWatermark · May 16, 2019

[adding the passages I've pointed out in the past]:

1Jn4:2 "... that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh" is distinct from 2Jn1:7's "those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh" ;

note: "…those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh..." ["this is the deceiver and the antichrist," the verse goes on to say]

[end of that quoted post]

TheDivineWatermark · May 16, 2019

Again, I believe He had a "glorified body" upon His resurrection (and not waiting some 40 days later for it)… and that He did His "I ascend [active]" [Jn20:17] ON His Resurrection Day [/ON Firstfruit, thus fulfilling Lev23:10-12]

TheDivineWatermark · May 16, 2019

preston39 said:

I agree with the other poster who disagreed with you.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 has a few things to take note of:

--"clothed upon" means [for the believer] to be given our glorified bodies apart from having to die first (i.e this takes place for the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" at our Rapture)--Paul is saying THIS is what we as believers are "EARNESTLY DESIRING" (v.2) ["that MORTALITY [re: those "STILL-ALIVE" at the time] might be swallowed up OF LIFE" v.4 (whereas 1Cor15:51-54 is covering BOTH "the DEAD IN Christ" ['THIS corruptible'] AND the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" ['THIS mortal'], and pertaining to "the mystery" he was disclosing here in 1Cor15:51-54)]

--"unclothed" means to be apart from our bodies UPON DEATH [of the believer]; no one of us is "earnestly DESIRING" THIS, but we (and Paul says specifically of himself) are "WILLING"... if that should be the Lord's will for us/him (that is, for us to DIE before our Rapture)

Either way is good, for even to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (for the believer).

TheDivineWatermark · May 16, 2019

Something else to notice about the Two Witnesses (their "death" and "stood upon their feet" and "ascended up to heaven" being at the "6th Trumpet[events]/2nd Woe" [not 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial point in time]), is this sentence:

"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the Lord of the earth." Rev11:4.

Now this phrase is used also in Joshua 3:11[13], where it says,

"Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan." [this is when they are getting ready to enter the land promised to them... battles would follow this point in the chronology (including chpt 6 and Jericho, for example--I believe "the GREAT trumpet" (Isa27:12-13/Matt24:29-31) seems to correlate moreso with that, than that of our "rapture" trumpet, as I see it... and this specific phrase "Lord of [all] the earth" corresponds precisely, in my view (recall what I'd said about "the glory of God in two spheres")--this one pertaining to the sphere "of the earth" ("Israel's earthly things"--which we are not to "mind" per Phil3:19b,20-11)].

Oh, and one other thing about the Two Witnesses' 1260 days (which I said I believe correspond with the 6 Trumpets time span...), I see their ability to send "plagues" as often as they will, to be an aspect of the "plagues" that Rev15:1's "seven LAST plagues" are also (but these VIALS are "IN THEM were COMPLETED the wrath of God"... the 2W's 1260 days is an EARLIER aspect of same ['wrath of God' but earlier aspect, not the COMPLETED aspect])

tanakh · May 17, 2019

If you believe that the visions in Revelation are meant to be read in chronological order the seventh Trumpet is the last one mentioned
there are no others after that one so logically its the last Trumpet. When Joshua had Trumpets blown around Jericho nobody slipped in
an eighth one before the walls collapsed.

TheDivineWatermark · May 17, 2019

tanakh said:

I did mention that I believe the "7 [judgment] Trumpets are located [time-wise] in the midst of the trib years, with the SEALS coming before them, and the VIALS following after them (but all of these WITHIN the 2520 days/7-yrs/'One Week'), and that the "6 [of the 7] Trumpets" run concurrently with the Two Witnesses' "1260 days" of testimony [and 'plague' doings] which STRADDLE the two halves. Armageddon ['war'] does not take place at the moment the 7th Trumpet is sounded... several Vials need to yet be poured out before THAT war is assembled.

SpoonJuly hasn't explained to me why the Two Witnesses "ascended up to heaven" at the "6th Trumpet[events]/2nd Woe" (when after they ascend, Scripture says, "the third woe cometh quickly" and then says "the seventh angel sounded [the 7th trumpet]" when SpoonJuly is saying EVERYONE/ALL SAINTS of ALL TIMES are [supposedly] to be "resurrected"... Why aren't THESE TWO?!? Why did THEY TWO "ascend" BEFORE that point in time? [according to the "7th Trumpet resurrection" viewpoint [which is not my viewpoint]).

And I have [my view has] no problem with the following:

Revelation 4:8-10 -

"And the four living creatures, each of them had six wings respectively, full of eyes all around and within; and they did not have rest day and night, saying: "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, the One having been, and the One being, and the One coming [present participle]. And whenever the living creatures will give glory and honor and thanksgiving to the One sitting upon the throne, the One living to the ages of the ages, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:"

...because, as I've already mentioned, I believe the "24 elders" ["24 thrones" and with "crowns/stephanos"] represent the already-raptured "Church which is His body" present in Heaven BEFORE the 1st SEAL is opened [recall I pointed out the "searching-judgment" wording of: "was found" (used of Paul's "courtroom trials" as well, for example)]... so yeah, we believe He is still yet "coming [present participle]" from that point in time (and verse 1 came before this particular scene [I mentioned that verse in a previous post] and verse 4 comes before the scene before us [I mentioned that also] and Revelation 19 comes way after this point in the chronology which is when He is indeed "coming" to the earth, at His "return" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom. Few viewpoints disagree that Rev19 is Him "coming"--He didn't do that back at the point of our Rapture [as that is not its "purpose"])

Tinkerbell725 · May 20, 2019

Wall said:

In revelations 1-5 you can see that the church is already in heaven. There is a wedding in heaven and the bride is already ready. After the 144,000 are sealed and brought to heaven to join the wedding, the great tribulation begins. You can't see the pretrib rapture in revelations because it has already happened before. The rapture in the revelations is the post trib rapture of the tribulation saints. Starting from revelations 6, the church is no longer mentioned until rev 19.

Rev 19:7-8

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Ps 45:14-15

14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.

15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.

Absolutely · May 20, 2019

SpoonJuly said:

There are more than one gatherings and resurrection inclusive of "1st resurrection" before the gwtj or general resurrection of earths entire dead.
Your biggest obsticle would be gatherings before 1st thes "dead in Christ rise first"
Postribs MUST remove that component or just say paul was wrong Rev 14's gathering preceeds the dead in Christ"

Postrib rapture is poorly,poorly thought out.

Absolutely · May 20, 2019

Tinkerbell725 said:

In revelations 1-5 you can see that the church is already in heaven. There is a wedding in heaven and the bride is already ready. After the 144,000 are sealed and brought to heaven to join the wedding, the great tribulation begins. You can't see the pretrib rapture in revelations because it has already happened before. The rapture in the revelations is the post trib rapture of the tribulation saints. Starting from revelations 6, the church is no longer mentioned until rev 19.

Rev 19:7-8

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Ps 45:14-15

14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.

15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.

There is no rapture of trib saints postrib.
The last gathering is rev 14 where the 144k are taken first,then "ripe fruit" follwed by overripe/rotten fruit that are trodden and discarded.

No rapture or resurrection postrib

QuoBono · May 20, 2019

Wall said:

Biblically we have been in the last days since the Lord Jesus ascended and say at the right hand of the Father. That is why the Rapture always been imminent and we're told to expect it at any moment. There are many many signs given for the visible bodily return of the Lord to establish His Kingdom...there are none for the Rapture. We return WITH the LORD when He establishes the Kingdom...meaning we have already been "caught up" with Him.

tanakh · May 20, 2019

Absolutely said:

Revelation is comprised almost entirely of references based on the OT It is the only book that does not
use direct quotations but uses allusions to OT books instead. John had an extensive knowledge of scripture so the Holy Spirit could use him to write the message to the seven churches.

I have a list of a large number of the hundreds of references used in revelation set out in each of the
22 chapters together with the verses they relate to. I hope to post them all in a series of threads in
the near future

louis · May 20, 2019

Wall said:

You are correct that man, including the saints continue on the earth for the thousand years following the demise of the beasts system.

The rapture theory is based on 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in which the saints who are alive when the Lord returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air.
There are only two other areas in the bible with the description of individuals being caught up to heaven, and God.
The first one (2 Cor 12:2 &4) Paul describes a man who is caught up to heaven, but then later relates his experience to Paul on earth, thereby indicating his being caught up to heaven, being a spiritual ascension.
The next one (Rev 12:5) shows the man child who emerges from the travailing woman caught up to Gods throne in heaven, and who later, the devil who has been cast to the earth then goes to make war with the man child (Rev 12:17), thereby indicating the man child who was caught up to God and His throne, is still on the earth physically.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

TheDivineWatermark · May 20, 2019

louis said:

No. Verse 13 says, "And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman which had brought forth the male [G730 - arsena]" before verse 17 goes on to tell of what takes place after that, which is completely distinct where it is saying, "And the dragon was angry with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest [PLURAL] of her children/seed/offspring keeping the commandments of God and holding the testimony of Jesus." (THESE are people existing in the tribulation period, who are distinct from "the male [G730 - singular]" [who may "himself" represent a corporate entity, as is my view--but who is completely DISTINCT from "the rest/remnant" of her seed]. See also Micah 5:3 "give THEM up UNTIL" [distinct from Micah 5:2 re: Jesus' birth])

louis said:

See also Revelation 2:26-27 and its particular wording (in the bold, below):

24 But I say to you, to the rest of those in Thyatira, as many as do not have this teaching, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say: I will not cast upon you any other burden. 25 But hold fast to what you have until which time I might come. 26 And the one overcoming and keeping My works until the end, I will give to him authority over the nations, 27 and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken in pieces—just as I also have received from My Father. 28 And I will give to him the morning star.

TheDivineWatermark · May 20, 2019

QuoBono said:

There are many many signs given for the visible bodily return of the Lord to establish His Kingdom...there are none for the Rapture. We return WITH the LORD when He establishes the Kingdom...meaning we have already been "caught up" with Him.

Yes!

Agreed.

louis · May 20, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

The devil goes off to make war with the remnant of her seed.
The remnant of the womans seed are the still alive on the earth saints, who have spiritually been caught up to God and His throne.
The still alive on the earth saints are caught up to God and His throne after the saints who have been killed in the great tribulation have been caught up. This is how the Lord returns with tens of thousands of saints.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

TheDivineWatermark said:

This is when the saints who have spiritually been caught up to God (are greatly enlightened), here on earth are ruling over mankind who are now in gross darkness, after the Lord who comes like a thief removes His enlightening presence from the beasts worshippers. (Isaiah 60:1-3 & 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4).

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

TheDivineWatermark · May 20, 2019

louis said:

I'm saying that there are THREE DISTINCT entities in this passage (besides Satan/the dragon):

1) --"the woman which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730]"

2) --"the male [singular; G730]"

3) --"the remnant [PLURAL] of her seed"

(neither "the woman" nor "the remnant [plural]" are/have been "caught up" [G726 - hērpasthē / harpazo]--these exist on the earth [during the trib years, and even the second half of the trib that this section refers to specifically, the remaining 1260 days])

louis · May 20, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Are you saying the male singular is Jesus? because if you are the book of Revelation written circa 95 AD would not be prophesy, but merely a historical recaping of events some 60+ years earlier.
Revelation 4:1 clearly indicates all events in Revelation chapters 4-22 in the hereafter, after 95 AD.
The man child from the travailing woman are the saints (plural) who are caught up spiritually.
The Lord then commences to reign on earth through the remnant surviving saints (Micah 5:3), who have been caught up spiritually.
I do agree with you that neith the woman nor the remnant survivors of the great tribualtion have yet to be caught up.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

TheDivineWatermark · May 20, 2019

louis said:

No. Not Jesus' birth [but definitely in connection "with [G4862]" Him].

louis said:

As I mentioned, I believe "the male [G730]" being whom "the woman HAD BROUGHT FORTH" ([time-wise, in relation to/]from this "mid-trib" perspective, so well-before this point in time) is distinct from "the remnant [PLURAL] of her seed [/offspring]" who are indeed still present on the earth at this "mid-trib" point and thereafter.

louis said:

I believe the passage speaks ONLY of the male being "caught up" (not "the woman" who will "FLEE," and "the remnant [plural] of her seed/offspring" who are the ones [plural] that the dragon goes after [once he is "cast out unto the earth" to be now limited to that sphere] on the earth during the 2nd half of trib especially).

louis said:

"the remnant of his brethren" in this verse, correlating with "the remnant [plural] of her seed" in the Rev12 passage (whom, Micah 5:3 says, "Therefore will he give them up UNTIL... hath brought forth: THEN the remnant of his brethren shall return..." [correlating with Hosea 5:15-6:3 note the "TILL," and other parallel passages I've listed before; incl'g the "blindness... UNTIL"])

TheDivineWatermark · May 20, 2019

^ the above being my viewpoint of that passage, but which is not something that is central to my pre-trib viewpoint (IOW, even if I am not correct on this point, it does not in any way affect the overall pre-trib view).

TheDivineWatermark · May 20, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

A couple more things I could say on this point ^ (though I won't elaborate here):

--Acts 13:33 seems to be said in connection to Jesus' Resurrection Day [ON "Firstfruit"--Lev23:10-12], where it says,

"32 And now we proclaim to you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33 He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:

‘You are My Son;

today I have become Your Father.’

34 In fact, God raised Him from the dead never to see decay. As He has said:

‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings I promised to David.’"

[and]

--John 16:16-22 speaks of His death and then resurrection [/1st ascension ('active') ON FF/same day], where He compares this to "A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world." [Lk24:41]

I could say more on this, but it will have to wait for awhile...

Twinkling of an eye

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