Can God be trusted?

Of course there are two different covenants / testaments.. That's why the Bible has an old testament and a New testament .. The Jews where under a different agreement.. Now the contract is the salvation by the grace of God through believing Jesus and trusting that the Atonement He secured for us pays the price of our sins..

The principles never change but the working out of the problem of sin has a finalized procedure..

God didn't change. He died. That is how we have the New Covenant (Testament).

Hebrews 9:15-17 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

In my bible, Christ was there at creation. Christ is God and eternal.

In my scripture the sacrificial system operated with the blood of animals symbolizing Christ, and through that there was grace based on faith and repentance. This was completed and perfected when Christ lived and died among us, but Christ was from the beginning. Even in the NT that the established church has decided is more reliable scripture, the very first chapter of John gives us this fact about God.

Would you please give scripture reference to your statements. Where in scripture does it state that it is two separate scriptures? My understanding is that in God's eyes it is one scripture, not divided as man divided it.

Where in scripture does it tell us that the two covenants that we are given are not related to each other in any way but one cancels the other?

If you are sure the first is cancelled, do you think that the blessings we are promised are also cancelled? They are an necessary part of the first covenant.

Are you of the opinion that grace is only of the NT and was non existent until then?

Well it is a theme in more then one place in the Bible.. But i will encourage you to read the Book of Hebrews chapters 8 and 9 and 10.. That scriptures is fairly clear about the transition between the Old covenant and the New covenant,,

My answer: First, thanks so much for you answer, so we can discuss this difference.

You are correct that our difference in interpretation is based on a lack of study, but i have studied much more thoroughly than you. You are reading Hebrews as a doubting Thomas, doubting the truths of the OT. Paul wrote this book to people who knew scripture, knew the principles of the Lord, and applied them to all written of God.

I have never stated that they where not related to each other.. They are related but they are different..

My answer: Then how can I state your side more accurately?

The blessings of the first covenant where primarily based on the need to do the Law.. The second is based primarily on believing / trusting Jesus..

My answer: Again, you are not basing scripture on God's word to us but say it is only expressing a need to do. God tells us of a need to do, it is His word. God tells us of faith as a base, it is a need. God is harmony, balance and never about cancellation, or getting rid of one aspect of God because of another aspect. Faith is of God and we must listen. Doing God's will is of God ad we are to listen. One does not cancel the other at all. Just as the second covenant does not cancel God's word in the first covenant.

God had grace on David over the issue of His adulterous relationship with Bathsheba.. But i believe that David looked forward to and believed in the coming Atonement of the Messiah that would eventually pay the price for his sin..

My answer: Again it is in believing scripture. Scripture says the sacrificial system worked for salvation. They slept rather than be with the Lord in heaven as came after Christ. See Matt. 27:51 to 53.

If God doesnt change the way He deals with man as I quoted to be true from Hebrews.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN the verse that says when the priesthood changed, so did by necessity the law?

Do you suggest we go back to circumcision? Sacrificing animals? OT?

My point is this: God Himself does not change, yes. But does God deal with people differently in different times? (Or dispensations, if thats your thing) YES.

What was going on with Noah, is not the same as is going on today. What was going on with Moses is not the same as is going on today. Even in the OT, God deals with people differently, Noah is never given the mosaic covenant, he is told to eat whatever he wants, Moses is told to abstain from certain foods, is that a contradiction? No. Its just a different time, different covenant!

My answer: Again it is in believing scripture. Scripture says the sacrificial system worked for salvation. They slept rather than be with the Lord in heaven as came after Christ. See Matt. 27:51 to 53.

Most of your post was just statements without Biblical support.. But here you state that the Blood of bulls and lambs obtained salvation for the ones offering the sacrifice..

Again we go to Hebrews to get a clear statement to the contrary..

Hebrews 10: KJV
1 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. {2} For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. {3} But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. {4} For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats take away sins or make the ones carrying out those sacrifices perfect.. And indeed we need to be deemed perfect to enter into eternity with God.. Those sacrifices where a foreshadowing of the actual sacrifice, the actual blood that would make people perfect and thus Redeem them. That sacrifice is the sacrifice of Jesus.. The Perfect Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world..

You are reading Hebrews without any knowledge of God and of course you don't understand.

When I post that God can be trusted to always remain the same, that God is and has always been eternal, I am laughed at and ridiculed. They ask if I believe in killing animals for blood and if I obey the 613 laws. They say that God even changed the laws that our earth is operated by and then they quote Paul.

I realize that at one time Paul had used his perception of God’s law to even cause people to be killed and after Paul met Christ to learn how wrong it was he was dedicated to teach others not to make that same mistake. But I don’t think Paul taught anyone to oppose God, and I feel sure God is eternal and does not change. God established His doctrines and gave them to us in scripture and I feel sure scripture about what was is still true and is scripture about what is today.

Yet most Christians are opposed to this idea. I hope you will all post why you think so, and how it is to live in a world created by a God that changes so is unpredictable. I should think it would be very frightening for if God changes, God can not be depended on.

If you can accuse me of using my own reasoning rather than the Lord's by not basing everything I say on scripture than you have not studied scripture nor read my posts. How to you think, with this reasoning you are doing, that Moses could be alive so he could speak to the towns people as it is told of in Matthew 27:51 to 53 if there was no salvation when Moses lived on this earth? I cannot go to you home and teach you all of Leviticus that you have not studied in one post. This is symbolic of Christ. This post is also not long enough to teach you how God uses symbols to teach us. You really need to study to know God.

You are reading Hebrews without any knowledge of God and of course you don't understand.

Go to the first chapter of Isaiah please and you will see that we can use sacrifice in the wrong way and God hates it. It is not the giving of blood alone that saves us, it is the way we use this sacrifice. If you read on in Isaiah you will find the way that sacrifice (both the real sacrifice of Christ and the symbolic sacrifice of bulls) is to be used for salvation. Study for yourselves.

In Hebrews and all of Paul's letters, he was teaching people who had not heard of Christ but knew the sacrificial system well that it was not the blood of animals and never was, it is Christ and always had been. We are to understand Christ, but in that understanding it should not include criticizing God for using a symbolic Christ before His time on earth.

You are not explaining our position that God has changed His principles, only pointed a wagging finger at me. Explain your position that God is a changeable God so you cannot rely on any one scripture, it can change at the whim of God. My study of scripture tells me I can rely on the Lord, that the principles of our creator is the same from creation until today.

Forget the finger pointing and explain yourself, OK?

Hi Blik,

I agree with your premise. God does not change, ever.
So we have a problem of intent and purpose in Gods revelation to man.
The bible is not a small document and has many complexities and layers, so Gods truth
must equally be layered and complicated.

The basic theological matching of the law of Moses to Jesus is shadow.
The Mosaic law sets the definition of how to run a country, a whole community, and setting boundaries
of behaviour which have specific civil and penal repercussions.

In terms of our relationship to God it has always been a heart cleansed reality with faith.
But the power of this relationship was only realised after the cross, which meant the Holy Spirit
could then dwell in believers, the start of the Kingdom of God on earth.

The power of fulfilment of the law is Christ's love working in our purified cleansed hearts.

One Jesus became the atoning sacrifice nothing else needed to be achieved, it was all realised.
So the temple, Israel as a nation no longer was significant in the Lord, except as a fulfilment of
prophecy and blessing. Gods people were now the true Israel, to go on to inherit their place with
the Lord.

Now there are people on these forums who believe in free grace theology, which is being accepted
in sin as saved and your obedience or conformity to the walk of Jesus is irrelevant.

Such people are extremely aggressive and often do not declare their true allegiance to denying
Christs words or living a Holy life. This creates great confusion and dissension among those who
do not understand the issues, but like the personalities.

If you can accuse me of using my own reasoning rather than the Lord's by not basing everything I say on scripture than you have not studied scripture nor read my posts. How to you think, with this reasoning you are doing, that Moses could be alive so he could speak to the towns people as it is told of in Matthew 27:51 to 53 if there was no salvation when Moses lived on this earth? I cannot go to you home and teach you all of Leviticus that you have not studied in one post. This is symbolic of Christ. This post is also not long enough to teach you how God uses symbols to teach us. You really need to study to know God.

You are reading Hebrews without any knowledge of God and of course you don't understand.

Go to the first chapter of Isaiah please and you will see that we can use sacrifice in the wrong way and God hates it. It is not the giving of blood alone that saves us, it is the way we use this sacrifice. If you read on in Isaiah you will find the way that sacrifice (both the real sacrifice of Christ and the symbolic sacrifice of bulls) is to be used for salvation. Study for yourselves.

In Hebrews and all of Paul's letters, he was teaching people who had not heard of Christ but knew the sacrificial system well that it was not the blood of animals and never was, it is Christ and always had been. We are to understand Christ, but in that understanding it should not include criticizing God for using a symbolic Christ before His time on earth.

No... You have not acknowledged you are wrong about the blood of animals attaining salvation for people.. You have just gone of on a tangent dodged the scripture i gave and now bring up another issue that is unrelated to the topic which is can the blood of sacraficed animals attain salvation for people..

Clearly the blood of sacrificed animals cannot obtain the salvation of people.. Until such time as you acknowledge this then further discussion on the issue with you is of no profit to either of us..

How could you ask me to lie about scripture? And all I write about scri-pture is dodging?

If all the sacrificial system was only God spinning His wheels, then would you explain to everyone how it could be that when the curtain was split when Christ was crucified that the saints rose from their sleep? You have them dead because the sacrificial system had no use for them.

You also seem to expect me to post entire chapters, (are you lazy?) instead of telling you where to look. Look at the first chapter of Isaiah, as I have asked, to find how God wants us to use blood sacrifice, both of symbolic Christ and actual Christ. Read the entire chapter.
Lev_17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
We are told often in the OT that blood makes atonement.

They were not told, as we are told, that it was Christ's blood that made atonement for them, the blood of animals was only symbolic of Christ's blood. They did not go to be with the Lord when they passed from this life through the blood as we are, but they went to sleep until Christ came.

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

It's very hard, if not impossible to convey to ones' that are still "in the euphoria", of having repented and been forgiven their sins, that there is hard work aplenty, awaiting them the other side "euphoria!"

Matthew 7
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

(sighs) It's like God's love/grace has become an addicting drug, they have no wish in pressing onwards, to the high CALLING of God, in,through Christ Jesus from.

When I post that God can be trusted to always remain the same, that God is and has always been eternal, I am laughed at and ridiculed. They ask if I believe in killing animals for blood and if I obey the 613 laws. They say that God even changed the laws that our earth is operated by and then they quote Paul.

I realize that at one time Paul had used his perception of God’s law to even cause people to be killed and after Paul met Christ to learn how wrong it was he was dedicated to teach others not to make that same mistake. But I don’t think Paul taught anyone to oppose God, and I feel sure God is eternal and does not change. God established His doctrines and gave them to us in scripture and I feel sure scripture about what was is still true and is scripture about what is today.

Yet most Christians are opposed to this idea. I hope you will all post why you think so, and how it is to live in a world created by a God that changes so is unpredictable. I should think it would be very frightening for if God changes, God can not be depended on.

Perhaps, but such freedom as the rewards give.

I am so lucky. I am so elderly that I live with only my art of oil painting and writing a novel. I have outlived all my friends and my family has refused to speak to me even. I can't stand without support, I'm too old. All I have are strangers, a bed, and food. And the Lord. I have complete control of what goes in my mind: no TV or even radio, only my classical discs. It is if someone white washed the world for me. The news on my computer is my only connection to the world. I can live within the love and protection of the world as God created it to be without the pull that fleshly ideas have to grab us our of God's path. Itis as if many of what separated the Lord and me is taken away and I can live in closer communication with Him.