Can God be trusted?

[dcontroversal]

You are not being very clear with this post. I surly do not agree with you that God spoke of His relationship with us as only designed to make us guilty. In may bible grace was told of in Genesis, are you saying it began with Christ?

The first covenant included blessing God promised us, are you actually saying that God is changing so we may not be blessed any longer?

What I said was clear....the 1st covenant of law deems guilt and points to the cure the imputed righteousness of Christ and grace....and could care less with what you disagree with.....Romans 3 All the world becomes GUILTY and every mouth stopped <--purpose of the law ->> as a school master takes us to and points us to Christ....as far as your last comment....take it up with God

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

 

[Blik]

Since you weren't alive back then, God absolutely did NOT make an o. t. covenant with you.

You weren't alive the day Christ was crucified, either.

 

[Adstar]

Blik said:

Jesus did not come to change anything,

YourtruthGod said: “Of course he did!
The old law was not based on faith and the new law is.
No one is supposed to take an eye for an eye, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot.
No one is supposed to have many wives and concubines.
No one is supposed to get married and divorced up to three times.
No one has to get circumcised, observe special days, and do various external baths just to be near God's Spirit; no one has to adhere to a special diet and observe special days; no one has to sacrifice animals and go to a temple.
No one has to get cut off for sinning, if they repent.”

Blik said:

To the contrary. What Christ did for us on the cross is only the beginning of the wonders of life with the Lord is about. First, we learn of the payment made for our sins on the cross, that is the beginning. Then we learn to live with God as the center of our life. If you stop at the cross and refuse to grow with the Lord you are robbing yourself.

MessageoftheCross said: “Remember, if you leave the Cross, you walk away from God! Most Christians have left their First Love. They are proclaiming Jesus, but forsaking the Cross (lukewarm). This is called "Spiritual Adultery." If it continues, the scripture says the light is removed! Revelation 2:1-7; Revelation 3:14-19”

Seedtime expressed today’s church against our physical obedience to God’s guidance, when scripture tells us to act on the spirit’s direction: “JESUS ,was talking about the spiritual when man was relating the spiritual by expressing It to be physical.”

The question remains, did God explain Himself through Christ in the Sermon on the MT, was a new and different God created, or did God decide to redo Himself and change who He was? Can God be trusted?

I said give an example but you posted with two different stances not identifying which one is against the Idea of the Bible..

Jesus did not come to change anything,

YourtruthGod said: “Of course he did!

Which one is against the idea? Jesus did not come to change anything OR Of Jesus changed things ????

 

[Blik]

What I said was clear....the 1st covenant of law deems guilt and points to the cure the imputed righteousness of Christ and grace....and could care less with what you disagree with.....Romans 3 All the world becomes GUILTY and every mouth stopped <--purpose of the law ->> as a school master takes us to and points us to Christ....as far as your last comment....take it up with God

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

I agree, these posts are not about people's ideas, we are speaking of God's ideas and what any of us think does not affect God in any way. God is the I am. In our prayer life, in all we think and do, it is putting on Christ and reflecting only Him.

You are saying that God has changed His covenants with us, it is at the core of all your reasoning. I feel sure that is a wrong perception of God, it creates a false God that is not the truth. I think the truth of the Lord can only be found when we study his principles and apply those principles. If we did that and apply the principle of God being eternal, of God being completely dependable to do and be exactly the same in all scripture, it would give a completely different way of understanding the new and old covenants.

I feel certain that God is eternal, and the church has established doctrines that are against that idea. I think their doctrines are in error because it violates the truth of an eternal God.

 

[Blik]

I said give an example but you posted with two different stances not identifying which one is against the Idea of the Bible..



Which one is against the idea? Jesus did not come to change anything OR Of Jesus changed things ????

All the doctrines of the established church are based on the idea of God changing. They say to ignore all of the sacrificial system, it is changed. God says He is eternal and does not change, God gives salvation and blood is required, it is the same.

The established church says there is a change in covenants, that because one is old, (using animal blood to symbolize Christ is old) that the entire shebang of the old has to be tossed. God tells us the world is based on principles that never change and everything God does or has done were based on those principles. That would mean the church is wrong to toss out what God has done. When God gives something new, if what we are told about God is true, then it would be something God adds for God cannot be the eternal God we are told God is and take back what God did using our kind of time and not eternal time.

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree, these posts are not about people's ideas, we are speaking of God's ideas and what any of us think does not affect God in any way. God is the I am. In our prayer life, in all we think and do, it is putting on Christ and reflecting only Him.

You are saying that God has changed His covenants with us, it is at the core of all your reasoning. I feel sure that is a wrong perception of God, it creates a false God that is not the truth. I think the truth of the Lord can only be found when we study his principles and apply those principles. If we did that and apply the principle of God being eternal, of God being completely dependable to do and be exactly the same in all scripture, it would give a completely different way of understanding the new and old covenants.

I feel certain that God is eternal, and the church has established doctrines that are against that idea. I think their doctrines are in error because it violates the truth of an eternal God.

And you would be wrong......and too be honest....either you do not study, reject what you read or are deceived......the whole bible depicts two COVENANTS, one of LAW and one of GRACE.....a cursory read of the bible proves this point.....and one must be as dense as lead to disregard this factual TRUTH....TWO COVENANTS.....THE FIRST HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH and SUPERCEDED BY THE SECOND.....until you can get honest with scripture our convo is a waste if time!!

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

 

[oldethennew]

PS. 119:165.
Great peace have they which love Thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

 

[Blik]

And you would be wrong......and too be honest....either you do not study, reject what you read or are deceived......the whole bible depicts two COVENANTS, one of LAW and one of GRACE.....a cursory read of the bible proves this point.....and one must be as dense as lead to disregard this factual TRUTH....TWO COVENANTS.....THE FIRST HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH and SUPERCEDED BY THE SECOND.....until you can get honest with scripture our convo is a waste if time!!

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

You say I have not studied!!! You have not studied. Truly. When I found my church was saying God Christ changed so many things and I realized this had to be wrong because it was opposed to scripture, I retired and dedicated all my time to searching for the truth.

For example: the first covenant was improved by the second covenant. Read scripture. Does this say the first covenant was God's error? That the first covenant was all today's church says it is? No. It says the second covenant was an improvement.

I found that the errors of my church doctrines had to be studied, and that required going back to Genesis and reading it as it truly was. I needed help!!! I found I could find help through men who knew the culture of the people told of in Genesis, and that was possible now more than ever through the information learned by deep sea scholars. Those men who knew this culture has been gobbled up by prestigious colleges, and they have written books about it. I read these history books. Then I went to work on scripture, starting with Genesis.

I found the key to understanding God was to learn His characteristics and know they are the same through all scripture, that there is no change in God, God is eternal.

You are interpreting scripture based on a changeable God, it makes all your interpretations in error.

 

[Blik]

And you would be wrong......and too be honest....either you do not study, reject what you read or are deceived......the whole bible depicts two COVENANTS, one of LAW and one of GRACE.....a cursory read of the bible proves this point.....and one must be as dense as lead to disregard this factual TRUTH....TWO COVENANTS.....THE FIRST HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH and SUPERCEDED BY THE SECOND.....until you can get honest with scripture our convo is a waste if time!!

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

You have a very strange bible, one that does not tell the truth.

The truth is that we have a God who is everything told of God in the book of Psalms. If I were you I would trade the bible you have in and get one that includes this book. Then you could meet the true God. The true God developed a plan for our salvation from the first that man fell. This plan was developed by a loving God, long suffering and always ready to forgive. In this plan (you call it grace) forgiveness was offered to all man if they repented of sins, and blood was required for forgiveness. Blood represents life. God is eternal, God does not "do away with". That is being honest with scripture. Scripture does not say that God changes, There is no scripture in the entire correct bible (heaven knows what kind of writing you are using) that says God destroys what he has established. God says "getting old" . God says "waxing away". Things that naturally happen. But your idea of God destroying what He has established for us is something that is NOT in scripture.

 

[dcontroversal]

You have a very strange bible, one that does not tell the truth.

The truth is that we have a God who is everything told of God in the book of Psalms. If I were you I would trade the bible you have in and get one that includes this book. Then you could meet the true God. The true God developed a plan for our salvation from the first that man fell. This plan was developed by a loving God, long suffering and always ready to forgive. In this plan (you call it grace) forgiveness was offered to all man if they repented of sins, and blood was required for forgiveness. Blood represents life. God is eternal, God does not "do away with". That is being honest with scripture. Scripture does not say that God changes, There is no scripture in the entire correct bible (heaven knows what kind of writing you are using) that says God destroys what he has established. God says "getting old" . God says "waxing away". Things that naturally happen. But your idea of God destroying what He has established for us is something that is NOT in scripture.

You should learn to read and cognatively deduce facts....embellishing what I said does not help your case....and the part about my bible not telling the truth is idiotic...it tells the truth, you just cannot accept the truth......like mkst religionists that have gone to seed on something....

 

[Didymous]

You weren't alive the day Christ was crucified, either.

I realize you may just be contentious because I've disagreed with you in the past. Your statement-while controversial-isn't logical. I think we both know very well that the O. T. covenant is nothing what we have today.

 

[Dan58]

I found the key to understanding God was to learn His characteristics and know they are the same through all scripture, that there is no change in God, God is eternal.

This is true, you've answered your own question.. The character of God is steadfast.. Jesus didn't change the law, but he did fulfill the necessity of many laws, making them no longer necessary. He also removed the curse of the law by his sacrifice.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is true, you've answered your own question.. The character of God is steadfast.. Jesus didn't change the law, but he did fulfill the necessity of many laws, making them no longer necessary. He also removed the curse of the law by his sacrifice.

And the NEW COVENANT supercedes the Old........!!

 

[Blik]

This is true, you've answered your own question.. The character of God is steadfast.. Jesus didn't change the law, but he did fulfill the necessity of many laws, making them no longer necessary. He also removed the curse of the law by his sacrifice.

If it is true that God established a way of salvation as soon as Adam fell, and God told us of how our world is operated with law after Adam fell, why would he take away our world's foundation?

God is loving. God is long suffering and kind. God forgives. That has always been. The sacrificial system told of Christ, and worked just like Christ works only not as well. God has not removed the curse of sin as the cause of death. That is the curse scripture tells about, it was at the beginning and is the same today. Unforgiven sin still causes death as it always has.

 

[Blik]

I realize you may just be contentious because I've disagreed with you in the past. Your statement-while controversial-isn't logical. I think we both know very well that the O. T. covenant is nothing what we have today.

Why is it nothing like we have today? If by this you are speaking of only the covenant given through Moses, a big part of that covenant was the blessings God promises. If you mean the part where God tells of ways to express love that makes our world operate better, how could God take that back? Do you think gossiping, telling lies, murdering, disrespecting parents and such now stops making our world better?

I speak of what scripture says, not what I think. We aren't disagreeing with each other, I believe you have truly been taken in with bad doctrine that is not in keeping with what scripture tells us.

Scripture tells us the new covenant is better than the old one, that is scripture. The new covenant tells of what the Holy Spirit does for us, and at Pentecost it was given to all. It is better, it is wonderful. It did not cancel anything. You say it has, but you are not backing up your opinion with scripture. The old is waxing old. God does not want us to toss out of His word anything that is not waxing old or is obsolete. Our church has thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Didymous]

The future promise is not the same as the future realized. If it were, most of us would be dying off as frequently as they did in the old testament. Perhaps you're right, and we're not disagreeing-just misunderstanding each other. Having been in numerous churches from the one extreme to the other, I find my doctrine is more in line with the bible than all of the aforementioned churches. If you think differently-having not even known of my doctrine-then I can happily agree to disagree with you.

 

[Poinsetta]

Why is it nothing like we have today? If by this you are speaking of only the covenant given through Moses, a big part of that covenant was the blessings God promises. If you mean the part where God tells of ways to express love that makes our world operate better, how could God take that back? Do you think gossiping, telling lies, murdering, disrespecting parents and such now stops making our world better?

I speak of what scripture says, not what I think. We aren't disagreeing with each other, I believe you have truly been taken in with bad doctrine that is not in keeping with what scripture tells us.

Scripture tells us the new covenant is better than the old one, that is scripture. The new covenant tells of what the Holy Spirit does for us, and at Pentecost it was given to all. It is better, it is wonderful. It did not cancel anything. You say it has, but you are not backing up your opinion with scripture. The old is waxing old. God does not want us to toss out of His word anything that is not waxing old or is obsolete. Our church has thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

The only thing that God changes is you. You are continually being transformed to the renewing of your mind. What you learn through the bible you apply it to your life and your mind and ideas and understanding.

Jesus is the same today tommorow and always.

So just apply Jesus to your life see what happens.

From your sis,
Poinsetta

 

[Blik]

The future promise is not the same as the future realized. If it were, most of us would be dying off as frequently as they did in the old testament. Perhaps you're right, and we're not disagreeing-just misunderstanding each other. Having been in numerous churches from the one extreme to the other, I find my doctrine is more in line with the bible than all of the aforementioned churches. If you think differently-having not even known of my doctrine-then I can happily agree to disagree with you.

When I decided to manage my bewilderment of what the OT told me, and tried to apply the truth of scripture to it, I learned that there were disagreements between the doctrine I learned in church and scripture. Either scripture was wrong or the church today was wrong, and I had believed everything the church told me. There isn't one thing in this world more important to our well being than God, and a knowledge of the truth of God is the most important truth we can learn. So I set to work, with putting the truth of scripture, the truth of God as first in my life. So when we disagree, it is not you personally I disagree with, it is false doctrines that is universal in the church today.

If you actually believe scripture gives truth, have you wondered why, when, and how the ideas of the differences from scripture happened? I did and searched until I found out with names and dates. Scripture tells us we must obey the law of Moses and tells us that we are not to obey the law of Moses. Have you searched until you find out why that is, knowing that there is truth in scripture? I did. Scripture tells us that the feasts are to be honored by all generates, or as long as the sun rises on our earth and man lives. The church tells us we do not need to. Have you searched until you find out why, when that happened, and who told us so? I did.

 

[Adstar]

All the doctrines of the established church are based on the idea of God changing. They say to ignore all of the sacrificial system, it is changed. God says He is eternal and does not change, God gives salvation and blood is required, it is the same.

The established church says there is a change in covenants, that because one is old, (using animal blood to symbolize Christ is old) that the entire shebang of the old has to be tossed. God tells us the world is based on principles that never change and everything God does or has done were based on those principles. That would mean the church is wrong to toss out what God has done. When God gives something new, if what we are told about God is true, then it would be something God adds for God cannot be the eternal God we are told God is and take back what God did using our kind of time and not eternal time.

Of course there are two different covenants / testaments.. That's why the Bible has an old testament and a New testament .. The Jews where under a different agreement.. Now the contract is the salvation by the grace of God through believing Jesus and trusting that the Atonement He secured for us pays the price of our sins..

The principles never change but the working out of the problem of sin has a finalized procedure..

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

All the doctrines of the established church are based on the idea of God changing. They say to ignore all of the sacrificial system, it is changed. God says He is eternal and does not change, God gives salvation and blood is required, it is the same.

God didn't change. He died. That is how we have the New Covenant (Testament).

Hebrews 9:15-17 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.