The Great Tribulation VS The Rapture Debate

Nehemiah6 · Mar 6, 2019

Another thread to stir the pot.

1. The Resurrection/Rapture is clearly revealed in Scripture. It is also called "the Blessed Hope".

2. The Tribulation is followed by the Great Tribulation. These are GOD'S JUDGMENTS on the unbelieving, the ungodly and the wicked. Study Revelation 6-18/

3. The Rapture must take place BEFORE the Tribulation and the reign of the Antichrist. It is not mentioned in Revelation, and the word "church" is not mentioned on earth from Revelation 4-18.

Locutus · Mar 6, 2019

iamsoandso said:

We don't really know what John is aware of in his visionary state except the visions.

dcontroversal · Mar 6, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Revelation 22:16 and everything in the book is written unto the CHURCHES

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

number two and three you are wrong or false

jb · Mar 6, 2019

For those interested you can find a short study Here on the events preceding and accompanying the Second coming of Christ...

Adstar · Mar 6, 2019

amberlynlover7 said:

We will go through the great tribulation which will be caused by the anti-christ and His followers persecuting Christians.. We will be protected from the wrath of God that will also happen at the end as Jesus returns to earth.. Those of us who are alive and remain will be caught up "raptured" on the day of Jesus return and we shall meet Him in the sky and we will be coming down to earth to rule the world with Him for 1000 years.

tanakh · Mar 6, 2019

There is a saying that the Bible explains itself. To get the full benefit from this one has to have a good working knowledge
of it. Many heresies and misunderstandings spring from not having one. There is a tendency among many to stick to a certain number of verses and passages and repeat them again and again adding their own or someone else's interpretation of what they mean. This is something that has happened with the subject of the rapture and the tribulation.

Here are some passages that are rarely mentioned when discussing this subject:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me
that of all that he hath given me I should lose
nothing. but shall raise it up again at the last day
and this is the will of him that sent me that everyone
which seeth the Son and believe on him may have
everlasting life and I shall raise him up at the last day

John 6: 39-40 KJV

No man can come to me except the Father
draw him and I will raise him up on the last day

John 6:44 KJV

Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood
hath eternal life and I will raise him up on the
last day

John 6: 54 KJV

Martha saith unto him I know that he shall rise
again in the resurrection at the last day Jesus
said unto her I am the resurrection and the life
he that believeth in me though he were dead
yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth
in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11:24-26 KJV

When is the last day? According to Paul the dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive will
meet them in the air. The popular belief is that ''the rapture'' Paul was talking about happens
BEFORE a seven year long tribulation period. Although some believe it only lasts for three and a
half years. But hang on. If there is a rapture and resurrection BEFORE the tribulation
how can it happen then when there is up to seven years tribulation to get through and still
be the last day? According to those who hold to this belief there are several raptures and resurrections. but
those who do so never talk about several last days. Was Jesus mistaken or being deliberately
being obtuse to those who heard him? Why didnt he put Martha straight on the subject?
There is no direct mention of the rapture in Revelation in the way Paul speaks of it. There
doesnt have to be because both the Gospel and Revelation were written by John. He had already
explained it by quoting Jesus in his Gospel. It happens at the second coming. Judgement day

Verily Verily I say unto you He that heareth my word and
believeth on him who sent me hath everlasting life and
shall not come into condemnation but is passed from
death unto life. Verily Verily I say unto you the hour is coming
and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God
and they that hear shall live. For as the Father has life in himself
And has given to the Son to have life in himself. And has given him
authority to execute judgement also because he is the Son of Man
Marvel not at this for the hour is coming that in the which all that
are in the graves shall hear his voice. And they shall come forth
they who have done good unto resurrection of life and those who
who have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:24-29 KJV

The Day of the Lord

Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord
to what end is it to you? The day of the Lord is
darkness and not light. As if a man did flee
from a Lion and a Bear met him or went into
the house and leaned his hand on a wall and
a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the Lord
be darkness and not light? Even very dark and no
brightness in it.

Amos 5:18-20 KJV

For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven
with the voice of an Archangel and with the trump
of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then
we who are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord
in the air and so we shall ever be with the Lord
Wherefore comfort yourselves with these words
But of the times and the seasons brethren ye
have no need that I write unto you. For you
yourselves know perfectly well that the day of
the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night For
when they say Peace and safety then sudden
destruction cometh upon them as travail upon
a woman with child and they will not escape.
But you brethren are not in darkness that that
day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all
children of light and the children of the day we
are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore
let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep
sleep in the night and those that be drunken
are drunken in the night. But let us who are of
the day be sober putting on the breastplate of
faith and love and for an helmet the hope of
salvation. For God has not appointed us to wrath
but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ who
died for us that whether we wake or sleep we should
live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 5:1-10

The day of the Lord according to Amos and Paul is not a
secret silent affair as described by many. Neither is it an escape
from a great tribulation. It is the second coming of Christ in
judgement. Those who talk of a secret rapture also talk of a
blessed hope. The blessed hope is salvation through Jesus
not some escape route from the tribulation. People quote
part of 1 Thessalonians 5 10 but seldom if ever quote all of it
where Paul speaks of our hope of our eternal salvation.
The wrath of God is not not for a temporary period but
is eternal in the lake of fire

John146 · Mar 6, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

The tribulation should be referred to as Jacob’s Trouble.

Jeremiah 30:7 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

The Church is not Jacob. The nation of Israel is Jacob.

justpassinthrough · Mar 6, 2019

amberlynlover7 said:

Both the rapture and great tribulation will occur according to the scriptures.

There are three main things that happen at His coming.

When you realize these these three things you will get a clear picture of the rapture vs tribulation issue.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Three major things occur at the coming of the Lord: The Gathering of His people: Resurrection, Rapture, destruction of the false messiah.

Here is the order of those three things:

The resurrection of the dead in Christ: the dead in Christ will rise first...
The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
The destruction of the wicked and the false messiah [antichrist]: destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

JPT

justpassinthrough · Mar 6, 2019

John146 said:

Jacobs trouble was the holocaust.

JPT

eternally-gratefull · Mar 6, 2019

Tribulation

This is what we are told

1. Will be so great, nothing like it has ever been seen on earth
2. It will be so severe, All life on earth will be threatened
3. In all cases, it is stopped by the return of Christ.

Has it happened yet? No way/

Rapture. Comes from the latin word which means to be “caught up”

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Rapture) together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So is their a rapture - Yes

When will the rapture be?

3 views

Pre-trib, Post trib, Mid trib

Which is right? It takes people years of study to usually come up with a view. I would suggest you start to study, Study all views. And study the word. Then come up with your view

But please do not be like some (even some in here) who attack people who do not believe as they do. This is a non salvic doctrine, It should not be a cause for division. But satan has turned it into one.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 6, 2019

justpassinthrough said:

So when did Israel repent?

Better yet..

Jer 30:
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord,
‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’

When did the bolded above take place?

1. Isreal is still not freed completely
2. She is not worshiping the lord their God
3. She is at continual war with her neighbors thus are not at rest
4. The nations which God sent them to have not been destroyed.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 6, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Yes, written to the churches to inform the Church that it is NOT subject to God's wrath.

And to warn the unsaved that the earth will face severe divine judgments in the relatively near future. The bulk of Revelation (6-18) is a revelation of the wrath of God against the enemies of Christ and God. That includes allowing Satan and the Antichrist total control for 3 1/2 years (42 months) while God sends strong delusion on the unsaved.

REVELATION 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The Great Tribulation is also the Day of the LORD, which is the period of His wrath.

John146 · Mar 6, 2019

eternally-gratefull said:

Tribulation

This is what we are told

1. Will be so great, nothing like it has ever been seen on earth
2. It will be so severe, All life on earth will be threatened
3. In all cases, it is stopped by the return of Christ.

Has it happened yet? No way/

Rapture. Comes from the latin word which means to be “caught up”

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Rapture) together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So is their a rapture - Yes

When will the rapture be?

3 views

Pre-trib, Post trib, Mid trib

Which is right? It takes people years of study to usually come up with a view. I would suggest you start to study, Study all views. And study the word. Then come up with your view

But please do not be like some (even some in here) who attack people who do not believe as they do. This is a non salvic doctrine, It should not be a cause for division. But satan has turned it into one.

Agree, Study and rightly divide. Let’s not place Scripture concerning the Jews on the Church.

Hevosmies · Mar 6, 2019

Everyone believes in a resurrection/rapture that is yet to happen. The debate is only about the TIMING of the rapture/resurrection.

Some say its pre-tribulation which to them means before the first seal of revelation is opened, some say post-tribulation which to them is either at the Revelation 11:15 sevent trumpet (last trumpet) or at the seventh bowl.
Some people are amillennial, which means they believe the millennium spoken of in Revelation 20 is symbolic of the present time of the church and believe the great tribulation came and went in the 1st century, was directed at the jewish people who rejected Jesus. To them the rapture/resurrection is on the last day.

I would suggest you look into all views, pray, compare scripture with scripture. See where you end up! Its not a salvation issue, so dont feel peer pressured to accepting whatever your particular church you go to teaches on this topic, IF you dont agree with it in your heart.

Hevosmies · Mar 6, 2019

dcontroversal said:

That puts a dent on the "its to the jews only!" theory.

Nebuchadnezzer · Mar 6, 2019

So not one soul has been raised from the dead yet, meaning that heaven at current is completely devoid of any souls?

Is the last day the same 24 hour day for everyone?
Or is the last day a different time for everyone?

tanakh said:

There is a saying that the Bible explains itself. To get the full benefit from this one has to have a good working knowledge
of it. Many heresies and misunderstandings spring from not having one. There is a tendency among many to stick to a certain number of verses and passages and repeat them again and again adding their own or someone else's interpretation of what they mean. This is something that has happened with the subject of the rapture and the tribulation.

Here are some passages that are rarely mentioned when discussing this subject:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me
that of all that he hath given me I should lose
nothing. but shall raise it up again at the last day
and this is the will of him that sent me that everyone
which seeth the Son and believe on him may have
everlasting life and I shall raise him up at the last day

John 6: 39-40 KJV

No man can come to me except the Father
draw him and I will raise him up on the last day

John 6:44 KJV

Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood
hath eternal life and I will raise him up on the
last day

John 6: 54 KJV

Martha saith unto him I know that he shall rise
again in the resurrection at the last day Jesus
said unto her I am the resurrection and the life
he that believeth in me though he were dead
yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth
in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 11:24-26 KJV

When is the last day? According to Paul the dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive will
meet them in the air. The popular belief is that ''the rapture'' Paul was talking about happens
BEFORE a seven year long tribulation period. Although some believe it only lasts for three and a
half years. But hang on. If there is a rapture and resurrection BEFORE the tribulation
how can it happen then when there is up to seven years tribulation to get through and still
be the last day? According to those who hold to this belief there are several raptures and resurrections. but
those who do so never talk about several last days. Was Jesus mistaken or being deliberately
being obtuse to those who heard him? Why didnt he put Martha straight on the subject?
There is no direct mention of the rapture in Revelation in the way Paul speaks of it. There
doesnt have to be because both the Gospel and Revelation were written by John. He had already
explained it by quoting Jesus in his Gospel. It happens at the second coming. Judgement day

Verily Verily I say unto you He that heareth my word and
believeth on him who sent me hath everlasting life and
shall not come into condemnation but is passed from
death unto life. Verily Verily I say unto you the hour is coming
and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God
and they that hear shall live. For as the Father has life in himself
And has given to the Son to have life in himself. And has given him
authority to execute judgement also because he is the Son of Man
Marvel not at this for the hour is coming that in the which all that
are in the graves shall hear his voice. And they shall come forth
they who have done good unto resurrection of life and those who
who have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 5:24-29 KJV

The Day of the Lord

Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord
to what end is it to you? The day of the Lord is
darkness and not light. As if a man did flee
from a Lion and a Bear met him or went into
the house and leaned his hand on a wall and
a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the Lord
be darkness and not light? Even very dark and no
brightness in it.

Amos 5:18-20 KJV

For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven
with the voice of an Archangel and with the trump
of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then
we who are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord
in the air and so we shall ever be with the Lord
Wherefore comfort yourselves with these words
But of the times and the seasons brethren ye
have no need that I write unto you. For you
yourselves know perfectly well that the day of
the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night For
when they say Peace and safety then sudden
destruction cometh upon them as travail upon
a woman with child and they will not escape.
But you brethren are not in darkness that that
day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all
children of light and the children of the day we
are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore
let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep
sleep in the night and those that be drunken
are drunken in the night. But let us who are of
the day be sober putting on the breastplate of
faith and love and for an helmet the hope of
salvation. For God has not appointed us to wrath
but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ who
died for us that whether we wake or sleep we should
live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 5:1-10

The day of the Lord according to Amos and Paul is not a
secret silent affair as described by many. Neither is it an escape
from a great tribulation. It is the second coming of Christ in
judgement. Those who talk of a secret rapture also talk of a
blessed hope. The blessed hope is salvation through Jesus
not some escape route from the tribulation. People quote
part of 1 Thessalonians 5 10 but seldom if ever quote all of it
where Paul speaks of our hope of our eternal salvation.
The wrath of God is not not for a temporary period but
is eternal in the lake of fire

AxeElf · Mar 6, 2019

I'm a pan-tribulationalist.

I believe it will all pan out in the end.

dcontroversal · Mar 6, 2019

Hevosmies said:

I have never believed that crap.....the word KEEP unto the faithful church does not mean remove....it means to protect, guard from loss or harm, hedge up.....and all that use that word to describe being "raptured" are twisting the word so far out of context and also stating they believe the other churches get LEFT BEHIND....false....you read the book and know where I stand......what say you bro?

dcontroversal · Mar 6, 2019

AxeElf said:

You know....for every 1 verse concerning the 1st coming there are 8 that deal with the 2nd coming....I am a WE CAN KNOW ABOUT THE 2ND COMING......if we are honest with the verbiage, words and context of those 8 to 1 verses concerning the Parousia of Christ, that is to say....our gathering together unto him........

Nebuchadnezzer · Mar 6, 2019

1. The Resurrection:

Is this a single, solitary event where all the dead in Christ that have accumulated over the past 2000 yrs, are all taken up in one shot?
Or
Is this a continual event where the dead in Christ are raised on a daily, or weekly, or monthly or yearly basis over the past 2000 yrs?
Or
The moment someone who is in Christ dies they are resurrected right away?

justpassinthrough said:

The Great Tribulation VS The Rapture Debate

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