Not By Works
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Believe and obey carries the same meaning....
but you could go ahead and fight it forever....
Probably because it's more comforting to you NOT to obey...
OR
Why fight it so constantly?
The following shows how incorrect you are.
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Does It Matter If John 3:16 Is About Obedience Not Belief?
There is a huge difference theologically between obey, comply, trust on one side and belief on the other.
Jesus discussed once this distinction. Jesus said it is incongruous to think you can say you believe in Him as Lord but feel free to disobey Him. Jesus said: “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46.) Jesus therefore declares it is unfathomable that one thinks it is enough to believe in Him but not obey Him.
Another proof of a large chasm of difference between mere belief and obedience comes from the gospel accounts about demons.
Demons believe Jesus is Lord and Savior. (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34. See also, James 2:19.) The demons, however, do not obey Jesus as Lord. They do not act in compliance with their acknowledgment of the fact of who Jesus is. They do not trust Him. They do not obey Him.
Pastor Stedman, an evangelical scholar who believes in ‘faith alone,’ unwittingly admits this distinction:
Remember that back in the Gospel accounts there were demons that acknowledged the deity of the Lord Jesus? When he appeared before them they said, ‘We know who you are, the Holy One of God.’ (cf, Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34.) They acknowledged what the Jews were too blind to see, the full deity of Jesus Christ, as well as his humanity. But, though demons acknowledged this, they never confessed it. They never trusted him. They did not commit themselves to him, they did not live by this truth.6
Yet, we are told that John 3:16 proves that if you believe Jesus is Lord, Messiah, died for your sins, etc., then you shall have eternal life. If this were true, then the demons should be saved because they believe and know these things are true. (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34.) James made a similar point in James 2:19. He says the demons believe the facts about God, but they are not saved thereby.
Hence, when we consider Jesus’ dismay that people think they can call Him Lord but that obedience is optional, we are justified questioning John 3:16 in standard translation because it licenses that doctrine for so many.
Reliable Dictionary Meanings Of Pisteuo In John 3:16 As Obey
The most exhaustive dictionary of ancient Greek is Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon. It is by far the most reliable.
There are six meanings offered in Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon of the Greek verb pisteuo at issue in John 3:16.7
One meaning in Liddell-Scott for the verb pisteuo is comply. A synonym is obey. (See Footnote 7, page 423.)
The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words (Zondervan: 2000) has this likewise to say of pisteuo:
Similarly, pisteuo means to trust something or someone; it can refer to and confirm legendary tales and mythical ideas. With reference to people, pisteuo means to obey (Soph. OT 625) [i.e., Sophocles,Oedipus Tyrannus, 625]; the pass[ive] Means to enjoy trust...
[2014 INSERT in yellow highlight: See quote from this portion under NIDNTT on Precept Austin.org. The reference "pisteuo means obey" has a google hit to the 2011 edition of Grimm Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti, a famous Greek to Latin Lexicon of the 1800s revised by the famous Joseph Thayer & others, but there is no preview page. See our google search of those exact words pulling up this 2011 edition. In Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannus 625 where this classic Greek usage is referenced, Creon in the online Perseus translation asks "are you willing to yield or believe?" (where 'yield' is pisteuo meaning obey = yield). Oedipus responds: "no, for you persuade me you are unworthy of trust." Storr agrees on the yield (obey) translation as the correct choice over "believe." Other translations render Creon's pisteuo synonymously as "listen to me," again pointing to an obedience-meaning. See Johnston. Also, we find Liddell Scott, one of today's most authoritative Lexicons, that pisteuo means "to believe, trust, comply, obey." See, A Lexicon Abridged from Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (24th Ed.) (ed. Rev. James A. Whiton, Ph.D.) (N.Y.: Harper & Brothers, 1891) at 561, Def. 1.2.)
[Similarly, the related adjective term "pistos" -- which some prefer to render as "faithful" to suit one's auditory senses - is clearly used by Jesus in Matthew 25:21 to mean "obedient." It can have a synonymous meaning of "trustworthy." However, 'faithful' is apparently chosen in translations solely to placate faith-alone doctrine because then some suggest "faithful" means "full of faith" when it simply means "trustworthy" -- a synonymn for "obedient." Rarely does it mean someone is "full of faith." This is explained in Murray J. Harris' Slave of Christ: A New Testament Metaphor for Total Devotion to Christ (Intervarsity Press, 2001) at page 96 including footnote 16 -- "a perfectly obedient slave was a completely faithful slave", and Bultman says "in classical Greek pistos had the nuance of obedient and pisteuin [i.e., the verb translated often as 'believe] had the nuance 'to obey.'" Cf. Daniel J. Harrington, Ed. The Gospel of Matthew at 343 ("The idea of pistos is more 'reliable, trustworthy' than 'believing.'"See also Matthew 23:23, where Jesus says the Pharisees taught tithing but omitted justice, mercy and the noun pistin. Previously, this used to be rendered as "faith," but now, with scholarship, it is rendered as "faithfulness" (meaning sincere obedience).]
This is likewise mentioned in the highly authoritative Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) 6 (1968): 4-7, in an entry by Bultmann (1884-1976) — the eminent Lutheran scholar — in which he says the verb “pisteuo means” (among other things) “‘to trust’” and “also ‘to obey.’” (It is both enlightening and disturbing to watch how ‘cheap grace adherents cope with this dictionary entry despite the TDNT being one of the most authoritative and scholarly dictionary references within Protestantism.)8
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You see gb9.....and I hope @mailmandan sees this too....
It's not that I don't LIKE biblical Greek....it's that I understand how complicated it is that I say we should keep away from it......WHY? Because if we want to be intellectually honest...
the above comes through just from reading the N.T. and what Jesus taught...
No Greek Necessary.
I do hope you read it,,,
It might be uncomfortable but it's true.
but you could go ahead and fight it forever....
Probably because it's more comforting to you NOT to obey...
OR
Why fight it so constantly?
The following shows how incorrect you are.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Does It Matter If John 3:16 Is About Obedience Not Belief?
There is a huge difference theologically between obey, comply, trust on one side and belief on the other.
Jesus discussed once this distinction. Jesus said it is incongruous to think you can say you believe in Him as Lord but feel free to disobey Him. Jesus said: “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46.) Jesus therefore declares it is unfathomable that one thinks it is enough to believe in Him but not obey Him.
Another proof of a large chasm of difference between mere belief and obedience comes from the gospel accounts about demons.
Demons believe Jesus is Lord and Savior. (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34. See also, James 2:19.) The demons, however, do not obey Jesus as Lord. They do not act in compliance with their acknowledgment of the fact of who Jesus is. They do not trust Him. They do not obey Him.
Pastor Stedman, an evangelical scholar who believes in ‘faith alone,’ unwittingly admits this distinction:
Remember that back in the Gospel accounts there were demons that acknowledged the deity of the Lord Jesus? When he appeared before them they said, ‘We know who you are, the Holy One of God.’ (cf, Mark 1:24, Luke 4:34.) They acknowledged what the Jews were too blind to see, the full deity of Jesus Christ, as well as his humanity. But, though demons acknowledged this, they never confessed it. They never trusted him. They did not commit themselves to him, they did not live by this truth.6
Yet, we are told that John 3:16 proves that if you believe Jesus is Lord, Messiah, died for your sins, etc., then you shall have eternal life. If this were true, then the demons should be saved because they believe and know these things are true. (Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34.) James made a similar point in James 2:19. He says the demons believe the facts about God, but they are not saved thereby.
Hence, when we consider Jesus’ dismay that people think they can call Him Lord but that obedience is optional, we are justified questioning John 3:16 in standard translation because it licenses that doctrine for so many.
Reliable Dictionary Meanings Of Pisteuo In John 3:16 As Obey
The most exhaustive dictionary of ancient Greek is Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon. It is by far the most reliable.
There are six meanings offered in Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon of the Greek verb pisteuo at issue in John 3:16.7
One meaning in Liddell-Scott for the verb pisteuo is comply. A synonym is obey. (See Footnote 7, page 423.)
The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words (Zondervan: 2000) has this likewise to say of pisteuo:
Similarly, pisteuo means to trust something or someone; it can refer to and confirm legendary tales and mythical ideas. With reference to people, pisteuo means to obey (Soph. OT 625) [i.e., Sophocles,Oedipus Tyrannus, 625]; the pass[ive] Means to enjoy trust...
[2014 INSERT in yellow highlight: See quote from this portion under NIDNTT on Precept Austin.org. The reference "pisteuo means obey" has a google hit to the 2011 edition of Grimm Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti, a famous Greek to Latin Lexicon of the 1800s revised by the famous Joseph Thayer & others, but there is no preview page. See our google search of those exact words pulling up this 2011 edition. In Sophocles, Oedipus Tyrannus 625 where this classic Greek usage is referenced, Creon in the online Perseus translation asks "are you willing to yield or believe?" (where 'yield' is pisteuo meaning obey = yield). Oedipus responds: "no, for you persuade me you are unworthy of trust." Storr agrees on the yield (obey) translation as the correct choice over "believe." Other translations render Creon's pisteuo synonymously as "listen to me," again pointing to an obedience-meaning. See Johnston. Also, we find Liddell Scott, one of today's most authoritative Lexicons, that pisteuo means "to believe, trust, comply, obey." See, A Lexicon Abridged from Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (24th Ed.) (ed. Rev. James A. Whiton, Ph.D.) (N.Y.: Harper & Brothers, 1891) at 561, Def. 1.2.)
[Similarly, the related adjective term "pistos" -- which some prefer to render as "faithful" to suit one's auditory senses - is clearly used by Jesus in Matthew 25:21 to mean "obedient." It can have a synonymous meaning of "trustworthy." However, 'faithful' is apparently chosen in translations solely to placate faith-alone doctrine because then some suggest "faithful" means "full of faith" when it simply means "trustworthy" -- a synonymn for "obedient." Rarely does it mean someone is "full of faith." This is explained in Murray J. Harris' Slave of Christ: A New Testament Metaphor for Total Devotion to Christ (Intervarsity Press, 2001) at page 96 including footnote 16 -- "a perfectly obedient slave was a completely faithful slave", and Bultman says "in classical Greek pistos had the nuance of obedient and pisteuin [i.e., the verb translated often as 'believe] had the nuance 'to obey.'" Cf. Daniel J. Harrington, Ed. The Gospel of Matthew at 343 ("The idea of pistos is more 'reliable, trustworthy' than 'believing.'"See also Matthew 23:23, where Jesus says the Pharisees taught tithing but omitted justice, mercy and the noun pistin. Previously, this used to be rendered as "faith," but now, with scholarship, it is rendered as "faithfulness" (meaning sincere obedience).]
This is likewise mentioned in the highly authoritative Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) 6 (1968): 4-7, in an entry by Bultmann (1884-1976) — the eminent Lutheran scholar — in which he says the verb “pisteuo means” (among other things) “‘to trust’” and “also ‘to obey.’” (It is both enlightening and disturbing to watch how ‘cheap grace adherents cope with this dictionary entry despite the TDNT being one of the most authoritative and scholarly dictionary references within Protestantism.)8
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
You see gb9.....and I hope @mailmandan sees this too....
It's not that I don't LIKE biblical Greek....it's that I understand how complicated it is that I say we should keep away from it......WHY? Because if we want to be intellectually honest...
the above comes through just from reading the N.T. and what Jesus taught...
No Greek Necessary.
I do hope you read it,,,
It might be uncomfortable but it's true.
I did not misunderstand.....Jesus said to search the Old because it testified of him and to say what you said about who put the two together and who can read what to me is ignorant.....especially when the OT was translated into the common Greek language in the 3rd to 1st century B.C. called the Septuagint.....Jesus told them ALL to search the O.T. and Abraham said the rich man's brothers had the Law and Prophets which would keep them from coming to the place the ruch man was!
The above is true but you have your dates wrong.
The N.T. was put together in about 400 AD.
I don't know if I'd call it ROME yet....I don't think so....
There were still bishops of the different regions at this time...the Pope came along later on.
Only teachers of the law could read from the Torah because it was so expensive to have one...hardly anyone could afford it - most people were "poor" back in Jesus time.
The N.T. was put together in about 400 AD.
I don't know if I'd call it ROME yet....I don't think so....
There were still bishops of the different regions at this time...the Pope came along later on.
Only teachers of the law could read from the Torah because it was so expensive to have one...hardly anyone could afford it - most people were "poor" back in Jesus time.
For @Hevosmies
The law was given.....:
1. To teach a people how to make a community.
The Israelites had been in captivity to Egypt, slaves, for almost 400 years. They were so concerned with their survival from day to day that they had forgotten everything about the civil world.
The law was to show them HOW to live and how to live together so that they could get along.
It was to teach them how to be a PEOPLE....which God always wanted them to be....HIS FAMILY,,,
2. The law was given to show us how we transgress against God's laws....To teach us how to keep God's Word and how to live for HIM.
1 Timothy 1:8-11
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
The above states that the law is good because it teaches us morals,,, so it's important to teach the law to everyone, and in a good way.
And, as is true to this day,,,,the law is not for persons that live responsibly, but for those that break these laws and cannot live in harmony with others.
Paul has taught the great message of God, but the lawless are against it.
This is much as what Jesus stated in Mathew 7:23....saying that He does not know those who are lawless.
3. Last but not least,,,,yes...the law was also to point us to Jesus....He fulfilled the law and made it complete...He did not abolish it,,,but made it acceptable to those that would believe IN HIM.
Really!
There are persons right on this thread that have clearly stated we could continue to live a life of sin and still be saved.
BTW,,, Charles Stanley has said this more than one time...
He states that one could become an unbeliever and return to a life of sin and he is still saved.
Maybe you didn't know this.... (and Stanley is not the only one).
Some may like this watered down gospel...
I like the gospel of Jesus and this is NOT what He taught.
There are persons right on this thread that have clearly stated we could continue to live a life of sin and still be saved.
BTW,,, Charles Stanley has said this more than one time...
He states that one could become an unbeliever and return to a life of sin and he is still saved.
Maybe you didn't know this.... (and Stanley is not the only one).
Some may like this watered down gospel...
I like the gospel of Jesus and this is NOT what He taught.
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So?
1. How do you know the above?
Did you ever notice how others post supporting evidence?
2. What difference does it make?
James wrote an epistle that is INSPIRED......do you not believe it?
1. How do you know the above?
Did you ever notice how others post supporting evidence?
2. What difference does it make?
James wrote an epistle that is INSPIRED......do you not believe it?
John 7:5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him
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Fran you do not qualify to criticize anyone for anything -- go back and admit you have deceived this entire forum and then say what you want, until then "you have no voice", on this forum. You were banned because the powers to be on this forum wanted you to leave. You need to abide by their decision.
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