Forgiving vs. Doormat

The forgiveness thread got me thinking about what's the difference between being forgiving and being a victim / doormat who puts yourself in situations that God wouldn't want you in because of a skewed view of forgiveness. On the other side would be the people who maybe don't practice Biblical forgiveness because they are afraid of being taken advantage of or think that any forgiveness means they have to allow that person to be a repeat offender.

And the other thought I had was that oftentimes abusive and unscrupulous people (as well as well meaning but misguided people), will use the idea of forgiveness to manipulate people and especially christians. Tell someone their behavior is wrong and you won't allow it around you anymore (or really either one of those things) and they'll probably retort "I thought Christians were supposed to be forgiving".

So how do we define proper forgiveness and how do we know when our forgivenessometer (please tell me we can make that a real word) is improperly calibrated and we aren't doing forgiveness in the best, healthiest, most Godly way? What experiences have helped shape your idea of what forgiveness is? In what circumstances do you feel you've forgiven too much or too quickly? In what circumstances do you feel you've been stingy with the forgiveness?

I think these kinds of questions are so good for us, so profitable. Hmmm, let me think a minute.


To me, regardless the offense, we are to forgive leaving vengeance and judgement, even opinion to Him, His to deal with. All we need to learn from it is discernment, knowing how NOT to be as well as the level of inappropriateness, so that we can decide if those ppl are not good for our well-being and our faith. We are to not only to approve of mercy, but love it. It should be who we are and how we operate.

Not to be repetitive but who among us hasn't been forgiven by Him when we didn't deserve it.

We see with Christ Himself, He was treated horribly, and His response, was forgive them for they know not what they do.

It isn't easy and I still struggle with it, especially when my feelings get hurt, lol. Bless my heart, hahaha. I think we never want to be a victim to my response. (Great meme read..Are you a victim to the words or actions or the response).

Does that mean we put up with toxic behavior? No, we turn our cheek if it is just someone having a bad day, like a grumpy bear. Even if we are dealing with someone who seems to lack insight and dishes and spews out poo like they are unable to imagine what it would be like on the receiving end of their words or behaviors, we still turn the other cheek but then walk away if they are unwilling to change or acknowledge the harm caused.

I so often see with Christians, rebuking and correcting others, but not able to receive it. Therefore, the way they treat others is appalling and if they are bullies, others tolerate their behavior. Still, we forgive them, because that is between God and them. Hypocrisy is so unattractive, especially mine. Lord, help us.

We need time and lots of super natural power and awareness of our own shortcomings to truly get over stuff sometimes, but we are to get over it, forgiving, even forgetting, the offense.

Condoning poor behavior is not the same as forgiveness. We are not to hang out with ppl who harm us or our loves. It isn't good for anyone. But if we discarded everyone who does something wrong, we won't even be alone, because we would need to dispense of ourselves.

If some one is abusing another or ourselves, it is our jobs to be good stewards of others and ourselves. So they need to be dealt with legally and by God, but still ours to forgive, but not be around. Wise as a serpent but gentle as a dove comes to mind. I think praying earnestly for them helps.

Great thread Cinder... It is just my opinion, right or wrong, I don't always do it well.

Well shoot, cinder beat me to it. I was just thinking about making a post about this very topic in the other thread.

I will post here the thoughts I was going to post in that other thread, as soon as I get said thoughts corralled into a postable form.

A good post, I believe, and some good input from all.

I think it's a part of God's perfection to forgive and forget. Something a human in carnal form cannot attain. It's sad, really, because we know what perfection should look like (because we were made in the image of God) but not something we're capable of achieving...(am I explaining this right? probably not). Anyway, having said that, I tend to think of a division between forgiveness and consequence. God forgive us - the sinner, but does not forgive the sin. The sin continues its life. In other words when a murderer asks forgiveness, it does not raise the dead they killed. It forgives the person, but the deed is subject to consequence.

One of my fave lines from "O Brother Where Art Thou' was when Delmar wondered why, since he was redeemed by the Lord, that he should suffer consequence for knocking over a Piggley Wiggley. The reply was "While that may have set you straight with the Lord, Delmar, the state of Mississippi is a little more hard nosed". And that's largely true! The consequence of the sin in terms of time and magnitude FAR outweigh the rich taste of revenge. In many ways, that's the point I often think God is making. Vengence is His but it is expressed by the consequence of the harmful deed. So, though a Christian may turn the other cheek, the consequence to the sinner is far greater than the harm done.

Knowing this, however, doesn't much help ease the pain of a fresh wound. But knowing God's Way helps me understand that the wrath of consequence festers long after the cut has healed.

Taking the perspective of the offender for a moment...

If I've hurt or offended someone, and I care about the relationship, I will try to understand what I did wrong so that I don't repeat it. I won't demand forgiveness, because I understand that I don't deserve it. I will acknowledge my own wrongdoing, apologize, correct my behaviour, and hope for forgiveness. I believe that is all biblically sound.

Generally, I don't ask for forgiveness, because I don't think it helps anything to do so. Instead, I think it short-circuits the healing of the relationship, because Christians (and many non-Christians) are generally quick to say, "I forgive you" before they really have. The result is resentment and awkwardness, because they feel bound to treat me as forgiven when it isn't real in their hearts. Better to give them time to heal. The one time it might be wise to clarify whether you're actually forgiven is if you sense that the issue has merely been swept under the rug (where it will fester).

Now to the recipient of repeat offenses...

Set boundaries: clear and explicit, with measured consequences that get enforced. "I don't appreciate you treating me that way, and I will not spend time with you if you continue" is powerful. It doesn't guarantee that the offender will understand, let alone change, but it puts the power back in your hands.

Then, in the quietness of your own heart, give the offense to the Lord and ask Him to give you the grace to forgive. It may take some time, and it may take some "working out" with God, but He will help you through it.

You make a good point about not asking or requiring forgiveness.

I love that movie How Great thou Art. I laughed remembering that line. Yes, I think it nearly impossible, on our own. I think we are to seek that, and need His Grace and lots of it to heal, sometimes. My halo is hiding from me, lol, so I have not arrived, hahaha. But we are called to raise ourselves to His standards. Lord have mercy... But true some sins are so horrible, and they, the sins themselves, are unforgivable. Maybe knowing that would make it easier to forgive the offender rather than the offense.

So... forgiveness.

For me forgiveness needs understanding. I have to understand why somebody did something before I can really forgive him. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

The first thing I have to understand (and sometimes remind myself of) is everybody is trying to do the best they can to get through life. Your success in life, how well you are living your life, is defined by how well you are meeting the goals you think are important in life. The problem is people get different ideas about what life is all about and what their goals in life should be.

For a person who thinks money is the answer to life, "success" is defined by his wealth and he will do anything to anybody to get more. For a person who thinks the objective is to live as long as possible he will probably become a health nut and badger everybody he knows about how unhealthy their lives are. A person who thinks having a good time is the primary goal will neglect his health and future for the present. Even the drunk who neglects his children and beats up his wife is really just doing all he can do to get through life - he hates his reality and wants it to go away and let him have some peace, so "success" is defined by how often and for how long he can drive reality away with alcohol. He knows the downsides, but it is really all he knows to do.

When i understand these things I am able to forgive. I do not approve the wrongs people do, and I can certainly try to guard against being harmed by them in the future, but I am able to forgive them.

So what is forgiveness? To me forgiveness is more what it is not than what it is. Forgiveness is not dwelling on it. Forgiveness is not complaining about it to my friends (unless a friend needs a warning to guard against being harmed, which is a whole different kettle of crawfish.) Forgiveness is not talking about it loudly to try to hurt the person who hurt me. Forgiveness is not holding it against them next time they need a ride somewhere or a couple bucks for lunch. Forgiveness is not bringing up how they hurt me every time I talk to them.

Basically, to me forgiveness is not trying to hurt them because they hurt me. It is directly opposed to my natural instinct, and it only makes sense if I understand why they hurt me. But if I do understand, forgiveness is the only logical choice.

We have to forgive, if we don’t it affects us, causes bitterness in us, spoils
our relationship ship with God.

Forgiveness however doesn’t dissolve consequences. So if someone robs you,
there are consequences to face for the action of theft. The thief could end
up in prison etc.

If someone is abused, there are consequences for both the abuser and the person
being abused.

Forgiveness doesn’t mean the perpetrator should get off scott free. Far better that they
pay the price of their crime in this world and come to Jesus, rather than have to pay
in the next. Forgiveness doesn’t mean we should be unwise. It doesn’t for example
mean that child molesters are allowed to continue to baby sit children etc.

Forgiveness allows God to work on our behalf, it allows God to see justice is served on
our behalf. It allows God to bring healing to you. It has nothing to do with being a
door mat or allowing someone to keep using you as a lunch bag.

You have curious, Lynx. I agree with you about everything. But don't you think human forgiveness sometimes takes a minute and why we may want or need to talk to someone? I guess the only one we should process it through would be God. Shoot, I need to work on forgiveness too, not only forgive, when the wound feels less raw.

I have often said: If we cannot be taken advantage of, we are not good Christians. Yes, people will profit from our good nature. We need to learn when to do a cut off to keep from becoming a doormat.

All a doormat does is allow users to continue to use. Then we are enablers, just a source to squander. Learn to say the answer is no, because I care.

I thought of this thread when I was scrolling elsewhere. I suppose the key in your thread and what others here are saying is though we should hold no resentment, completely forgiving, and forgetting, we most definitely should not enable toxic behavior, because that in itself is toxic.

I hadn't responded to the poll in the other thread yet, but my initial instinct is that I am too quick to forgive. Thinking more about it, I think that is because I tended to blame myself instead. I hadn't really thought too much of forgiveness other than I should be quick to do it until reading a book on some childhood trauma stuff. They were suggesting to not be so quick to forgive as healing can't be fully completed. I was quick to forgive my mother in particular, and found that during the healing process I had to keep taking that back, grieve different things about what had happened and then I could forgive and move on.

I'm not sure if my forgiveness had much value until I was able to fully grasp the harms that were done. It was meaningless agreeableness before that.

I forgot to add boundaries are important. I do think I can still care for others and open myself up to being helpful without allowing myself to be taken advantage of. I might limit what I do to help if I am unsure. There was a guy that gave me the heebie jeebies that used to live in my apartment complex. I wouldn't do any of the things he asked me that seemed potentially dangerous, but I did recognize that he was a lonely guy without friends here and didn't mind spending time with him talking if it wasn't a danger to myself.

I think this should be turned into a quotable quote and go viral. Much wisdom in this statement. And much to think about.

And I really like kind of the combination of what CharliRenee and Lynx are saying that forgiveness pretty much means no resentment and no retaliation.

Well, kind of... but it's more than that for me. It's not refraining from hurting somebody because "that's what good little christians are supposed to do." It is not hurting them because I sympathize with them. Even rude people are rude for a reason - they have found being rude keeps people at a distance, so they won't have a chance to hurt the person who is being rude.

People are just doing the best they can. The problems happen when their ways of getting by conflict with how we are supposed to treat others, and when they choose the action that seems to benefit themselves most.

When I understand that, it just doesn't make any sense to hurt them back.

Cinder, this is a very profound tug along these threads...
You have already received the Gold Star responses that I have read so far... and while I agree with so much of the insight that has been shared so far - I'll try to limit some of my thoughts 'by exception' to describe some of the dynamic challenges that I see as contributing factors for consideration...

I hypothesize that while the very noble Gold-Star insights and approach toward forgiveness vs victim/doormat can be interpreted in general terms with universal application - that certain factors such as: Relationship, Personality Types, Phases of Acceptance and Understanding - have a substantial role...

- Understanding: Yes - with thorough understanding and acceptance comes genuine forgiveness that can lead toward reconciliation or completeness or closure or acceptance for each unique circumstance...
- Relationships: Yes - we should be forgiving regardless of the relationship; but the type of relationship does infer level of interest and level of effort.
- Personality Types: Yes - we should be equally forgiving of all personality types; but we (us and them) are all different which raises so many combinations of dynamics and complexities that can occur between certain personality types.
- Phases of Acceptance: refers to the phases that most people go through upon feeling offended, judged, wronged or otherwise. The longer someone is conflicted without attaining acceptance suggests that they are less likely to deal with the problem wisely.
Phases of Acceptance include: 1) Event trigger, 2) Denial, 3) Anger (could trigger aggression), 4) Depression (could manifest), 5) Contemplation, 6) Acceptance...

-Family Relationships can be quite complex; but they infer a need for a heightened level of effort and understanding...
-Friends and Colleagues are unique relationships that potentially require a different level of effort, interest and boundaries. I like to refer to as 'rules of engagement.'
-Strangers who might offend you still warrant our understanding and our forgiveness; which requires us to have the fortitude to expedite our 'understanding' and level of effort to forgive such persons - by simply acknowledging the weight of the cross that they bare warrants our empathy - faster.

- Personality Types: The Myers Briggs assessment suggests the vast dynamic relationships between people with varying personality types. Sometimes different people require a different level of effort or unique approaches in order to improve those relationships. The unfortunate truth is that there are certain persons that we may come into contact with that for whatever reason are simply a toxin in our lives. In those extreme cases - ending or limiting relationships with toxic people may be necessary; which is understandable and forgivable. Either way, it is not until we have a complete 'understanding' of these unique circumstances that we are able make the requisite adjustments for those relationships; and once that understanding is made genuine forgiveness becomes attainable.

- Phases of Acceptance: coupled with all these dynamics above now add the inherent complexity of both us and them going thru our own varying phases of the Acceptance cycle which can often times confuse and confound any relationship and the potential for forgiveness. Interestingly, some people are able to cycle thru the Acceptance Phases a lot faster than others.

Depending upon the relationship - if it is family - many of us are able to demonstrate a genuine level of 'unconditional love', commitment and understanding that enables quick acceptance and forgiveness...
Alternatively, there are those who might be perceived as co-dependents - who enable others to treat them as a doormats for no other reason than the do not wish to place their relationship at risk... Rather, the may very well fully understand (Phase 5) Contemplation) that their continued cycle of forgiveness is not likely to change their circumstances within that relationship.

-Family Relationships can be quite complex; but they infer a need for a heightened level of effort and understanding...
-Friends and Colleagues are unique relationships that potentially require a different level of effort, interest and boundaries. I like to refer to as 'rules of engagement.'
-Strangers who might offend you still warrant our understanding and our forgiveness; which requires us to have the fortitude to expedite our 'understanding' and level of effort to forgive such persons - by simply acknowledging the weight of the cross that they bare warrants our empathy - faster.

I saw the thread a few days ago, which had me thinking. Perhaps i am both a forgiving, and to the children at least, not seemingly so forgiving at times. There's a song a sister used to sing entitled "He." It says "Saint or sinner call and always find Him there.... He knows every lie that you and i have told.. tho it makes Him sad to see the way we live, He'll always say I forgive." When i was finding it hard to forgive, those words come to me, and i remember His prayer "Forgive us as we forgive those who sin against us," and say to the Lord, "I forgive."

Of course, it is not that easy, i tell myself. The words have been spoken, but at times there still remains the hurt. That's the way it is, as when a child has not apologized, i may be hurt, but can overlook the offense when i see it wasnt so serious and move on. Once a child said something really out of place, and as i didnt really grow up in a house with swearing, ugly and hurtful words were never part of my vocabulary. After he had to leave for school in the city on a sunday, and there was no real reconciliation, i just messaged "I forgive" so he doesnt stress about how rude he must have been, as i tried to show i also want to be forgiven, and still teach to do to others what i do to them.

I can relate and empathize with your situation.
Sometimes we have to remind ourselves to love our children 'unconditionally' just as HE loves all of HIS children.
Once we are able to fully 'understand' that children will be children - we have to strive to 'not take things personally' especially when our role as parents is more important than our feelings of hurt and anguish...
I will pray for you and your family. God Bless