Not By Works

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28



Here’s the condition for receiving eternal life -

• My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Here is the result of meeting the condition -

• And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand

Study the word “hear”, and you will find it has the meaning of listen with the intent of doing what is heard.


His sheep who stop listening to His voice, can possibly wander away and become lost.



Anyway you slice it, the answer is the same; the lost must repent or remain lost.




JPT

Amen! 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders
and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.'
Luke 15:4-6

I like the parable. The crux of it is the shepherd finds the sheep, so it is no longer lost.

Version 2, not in the story, when the sheep die, Jesus brings the lost sheep home. But when you get
to reality, the sheep died lost and so was lost. Live sheep who are brought back are saved.

Think a little. A shepherd who goes out and finds a dead sheep does not return rejoicing I found my
lost sheep, its dead.

It is like at a funeral saying when these people were children they went to sunday school, lived a life
of abandon, but now God has taken them home to His heart, because that is where they knew they
belong. Nope. If they knew they belonged to God they would have communed with Him while they
were alive and followed Him when they had a chance.

I know, and so many people, in these LAST DAYS, settle for the HALF TRUTH, which is a full blown FALSE GOSPEL, of NOT DEPENDING ON CHRIST TO FULFILL SALVATION in our lives. I find it makes me SAD, when they want to tell that HALF TRUTH, thinking it is the true gospel. Then they will eventually want to say that in the non-OSAS position, we BELIEVE once you are SAVED, you have to earn salvation apart from Christ. Which is a TOTAL LIE ABOUT OUR BELIEFS.
LOVE is not Earning SALVATION, it is Validating that we WERE SAVED. NO LOVE, YOU ARE NOT BORN AGAIN.

How close are these two statements. One might even say the same truth told by two different personalities.
Being in Christ is salvation, is life, is eternity. Does the expression invalidate the believers reality of Jesus?

Excuse me H,,,
Calm down.
If you believe in determinism,,,,that God pre-determined everything that would happen and that we have no free will....

Then please explain to me who started the holocaust.

What I was going to say is close.

Jesus gives eternal life to HIS sheep...
Those that HEAR HIS VOICE.....
Not to those that do not...even if they THINK they're His sheep.

There's a slight difference.
We can know we belong to God because we listen and obey His voice.

This is totally off-topic...but I do think about Judas every now and then.

Did he really want those 30 pcs of silver?
Did he think he was helping Jesus instead?

If you remember, the first year (or maybe the 2nd) Jesus did not want to go to Jerusalem because it was not yet His time...He knew that when He went there to preach,,,he would be killed.

Maybe Judas wanted Jesus to get along with the Sanhedrin and stop fighting them....He did see the ministry of Jesus differently from the others. He did see it in a more worldly way..the opposite of how John understood Jesus.

And those who try to keep a foot in the Kingdom and a foot in the world, will end up being swallowed up by the world.

I guess this is one lesson we could take away from his story.

What do you mean sheep are saved?

Jesus was using an analogy....
The shepherd had 100 sheep.
They were all his,,,all 100....they all belonged to the shepherd.

1 of them wanders off on his own.
It would be interesting to discuss why....but not today.

Now the poor sheep finds himself to be all alone.
He still belongs to the shepherd.....for now.

There are 3 possible solutions to his problem.

1. The shepherd comes looking for him, and finds him and brings him back to the fold.
The sheep is lucky and he continues belonging to the shepherd.

2. The shepherd looks for the sheep but he has wandered TOO FAR OFF, and cannot be found.
The shepherd goes back empty handed and the sheep most probably will end up dead.

3. The sheep wanders a little far and is found by another person.
If he's lucky, it'll be another shepherd.. or it could be someone who is a robber and a thief.
John 10:1
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

The best action to take is to not wander away and remain in the fold with the good shepherd.

I have the whole rescue plan, and nothing but the rescue plan.
I cry out, "Help me" and everything is just done for me.

Rescue guys come down, put me in a harness and wip me up to safety.
Or
Rescue guys come down, inject me with medicine, food, water, teach me to climb,
hold on, and lead the way to rescue, showing me how and where to go.

On reading the rescue manual, stories of people who have been saved, which of
these versions is closest to the reality of God working in our lives?

It would be nice if it was the first one, because all you have to do is cry out.
But the second one is what the rescuer says we have to do, while He helps us every
step of the way. Do we rescue ourselves? No, because we could not. Do we use
everything we are given and the skills and talents we already have, yes, and everything
else we learn along the way.

And the point is? With Christ we have everything, in the world but not of it, as a witness
to what we are in Christ, were we are co-heirs with Him, reigning on His throne as His friends.

Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Rom 8:17

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:21

Who is overcoming? We are in Christ in our struggle with sin and this world to walk with Him.
Listening to some there is no struggle or overcoming or reward as a result. It is just one party.

Do you think things would have been different for David had he rejected Nathan the prophet and refuse to repent?

Therein lies the problem

What if the person does nothing are they still saved?

Exactly!!

Conversely how many works prove supposed "genuine faith?"

Every time I read scripture I read "faith" not genuine faith?

Faith is either something that person exercises or not, how does someone exercise something that is not genuine?

I had to disagree with your last STATEMENT, He separates the SHEEP FROM THE GOATS.

Matthew 25:31-46 (HCSB)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger and you didn’t take Me in; I was naked and you didn’t clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn’t take care of Me.’
44 “Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Many who think they are Sheep, are actually ONLY Goats. Jesus Himself calls them GOATS. The difference is Goats have not been BORN AGAIN, while Every Sheep, has been BORN AGAIN.

Now I will give you another INSIGHT:


When Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

That is the Young's LITERAL TRANSLATION. Early in the Catholic Church History, perhaps as early as 313 A.D., the Catholic Church started calling itself the "Church", even though the WORD was ekklêsia which did not mean CHURCH when JESUS said it. It meant religious ASSEMBLY. I suspect, that the Priests that originally decided to CHANGE THE NAME TO CHURCH, did so, because they wanted to distance themselves from the O.T. ASSEMBLY. They actually did us a GREAT DISSERVICE, by changing the name.

Here is WHY. YES, JESUS CALLED true Believers of the Old Testament, the ASSEMBLY. Then He even INFERRED the OTHER SHEEP were the ASSEMBLY, TOO. Now look at this verse:

John 10:14-18 (HCSB)
14 “I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,
15 as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[Did HE not lay down his life for the O.T. ASSEMBLY TOO ? 1 Pet. 3:18.]
16 But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
17 This is why the Father loves Me, because I am laying down My life so I may take it up again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to take it up again. I have received this command from My Father.”


WHO IS JESUS TALKING TO WHEN HE SAID THOSE VERSES ? ? ? Remember the BIRTHDAY OF THE N.T. ASSEMBLY was not until the Day of Pentecost after His Ascension.

RIGHT, HE had to be talking to the LAST of the O.T. ASSEMBLY.

O.T. ASSEMBLY - BELIEVED that Messiah would come.

N.T. ASSEMBLY - BELIEVED that Messiah DID come.

It is the SAME FAITH as ABRAHAM understood that GOD WOULD PROVIDE A SUBSTITUTE for our SINS.

NOW LOOK AT VERSE 16. WHEN DOES IT SAY THE TWO FOLDS would become ONE FLOCK. THEN ? ? ?

AFTER THE N.T. ASSEMBLY is COMPLETE, is that not the way you read it ? ? ?

THAT WOULD BE AT THE RAPTURE.

I always use genuine faith as you know.

The reason being is that there are some on here who believe that we do not know what faith means and what it entails.

I made this point yesterday concerning belief.
I have friends who believe Jesus is an historical figure, therefore a belief of Jesus.
Yet it stops there. I even know a few who hope their good works will outweigh the bad ones, and then compare themselves against others.

Which is different from someone who believes in and upon Jesus for salvation, and that alone.

Now when we say that then we are accused of using that as an excuse to sin, sit back and do nothing and get into heaven.

Even though the term genuine faith is not used a faith that is genuine will bear fruit.

You are excused this once for trying to use a "loving God would not" argument. Anyone who reads the Bible knows a lovign God WOULD indeed cast countless to hell, would indeed destroy the entire population of the earth save Noah's family etc.
Next time I respond to this argument I will type the same with even more !!!! marks. Be ready

The holocaust was started by wicked men. Out of the heart of man comes wickedness as Jesus teaches.
The Bible teaches God predestining things btw, so this isnt so much an argument with me, but with God. Did you know that God predestined a violent death for His own son? And im GLAD He did!

Acts 4:26-28
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’—
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

A loving God WOULD as we see above, and in Genesis 50:20! Dont let 21st century soft-christianity affect you!

Do you believe in original sin? Sin nature, whatever you wish to call it? If you do, then humans DONT NEED any "assistance" from any outside source to do evil, they are perfectly capable of doing it already.

Hi vco,

Let me say, I think you can take an analogy too far.
The lost sheep of Israel are lost, not saved, unrecoverable.

They are not described as the lost goats, because a goat could never be saved.

You end up like some say, a dog and a pig is turned into a sheep, but can never go the other way.
Or a goat becomes a sheep.

Analogies are just that useful links with ideas and positions.

A sheep has the potential for salvation, but it looks like not all do.
It is interesting because Jesus talks about good and bad trees, not a bad tree can become a good tree.
Like prophets. If you speak for God and get it wrong, maybe you have no clue about the real connection
and will never make one.

I think we can get things wrong, and put the emphasis in the wrong place, but rebellion and error seems
to only go so far. If one overthrows the dominance and fear of the Lord in ones heart, I doubt there is a
way back. It probably just becomes a game, playing with ideas and trying for a formula that one is happy
with. I have seen too many do this, and talk like this, nothing seems to be able to bring them back.

Sure he did...........by the hand of Paul..........Fran, I tire of your false accusations.........

For we must all appear before the judgment seat* of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. <----WE being Paul and the Corinthian church he was writing to.

Judgement seat*

béma: a step, raised place, by impl. a tribunal
Original Word: βῆμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: béma
Phonetic Spelling: (bay'-ma)
Definition: a step, raised place, by implication a tribunal
Usage: an elevated place ascended by steps, a throne, tribunal.

I am not even going to engage you any more on this set of verses other than to say....If you are too DENSE to deduce that they were never saved to begin with based upon JESUS saying HE NEVER KNEW THEM and or TOO dense to deduce and realize they were RELIGIOUSLY LOST MEN AND WOMEN BASED UPON and by their USE of LORD twice and the fact they have done MANY wonderful works in his name.......you really do not know as much as you think or you are as dishonest as they come........

The field is the world.....FRAN....if yo cannot be honest with what is said and what Christ said himself, quit addressing me....I am sick to death of your complete dishonesty and stupid accusations like above!