Not By Works

Thank you decon for preaching a true gospel, it has finally brought me to the reality that all of Macabeus "lemon tree or lemon juice" analogies is just a bunch of smoke an mirrors to get people to believe a lie. Not to mention why Macabeus continually writes his post in "HUGE" letters, hey Macabeus we can read English okay.

This is a very important point!!!

Key word being a result, yes I agree

So far removed from why Paul kept writing letters to the churches exhorting them to live out their new identity of being a new creation in Christ.

This false doctrine just wants to put all believers in one "homogeneous, uniform box" so the fruit inspectors can come by and stamp a big SAVED on it by making the false assertion that fruits of the spirit are also a gift and automatic.

If fruits of the Spirit are given by God as a gift and are so automatic why was the church at Corinth having so many struggles?

I have not avoided anything.....you cannot get past your twist of saying erroneously that works are a gift....no they are NOT....faith is a gift, salvation is a gift and even grace is a gift.....WORKS are not a GIFT they are SOMETHING WE DO and the direct RESULT of faith......

PAUL even contradicts the two and DOES NOT tie works in as a GIFT.....man....get your head straight, your theology straight and then we can have good dialogue....UNTIL then, your whole conclusion which is based upon an erroneous stance makes your whole conclusion false....

QUOTE 2 verses that states verbatim that WORKS area GIFT......YOU cannot find them because they are non-existant......

I can find verses which state...

faith is a gift
grace is a gift
salvation is a gift
eternal life is a gift

NO where does it state that WORKS are a GIFT..........they are the by product of the above GIFTS.....so......when you can get honest and truthful.....then we can address your other errors based upon this error...........

It is not that difficult to grasp unless one has went to seed on an idea with facts........it is rather simple....I can find verses that state clearly that faith, grace, eternal life, salvation etc. are GIFTS......

POST two sets of verses in context that states clearly that WORKS are a GIFT...........and yet the whole bible proves that works are the RESULT of the aforementioned gifts.....

CAUSE and EFFECT.................!!

Exactly.............and especially when applied unto WORKS.....the bible is replete with the truth that ANY and ALL works are the result of the FREE GIFT of FAITH/SALVATION/ETERNAL LIFE.....

The 11th chapter of HEBREWS alone proves this truth

No one has argued this truth.....what we have stood against is the false conflated argument that works gain, keep, top off, finish, embellish or maintain salvation......the bible does not teach this....faith alone is what saves a man eternally.....anything beyond that such as works or fruit are the direct result of the faith and salvation that one already possesses in Christ...eternally I might add......!

what happens when a man or woman leaves the faith? (such as ananias and sapphira)
still saved?????

They did not leave the faith, their lives were taken as punishment for lying and conspiring to hold back part of the money.....and the bible is clear.....

Jesus BEGINS, FINISHES and COMPLETES the work of faith he begins in us....if we believe one can LEAVE the faith and lose salvation then JESUS does not finish and or COMPLETE the work of faith he began.

also....

If we believe not (after initial faith and salvation and not the apostle INCLUDES himself in the word WE) then HE abides faithful because he CANNOT deny HIMSELF.......

The bible is also clear.....GOD chastens his CHILDREN and sometimes this INCLUDES the loss of physical LIFE..........MOSES, The Corinthian Fornicating Brother etc.......

Where does it say they left their faith?
They obviously had faith as you say.
But nothing to say they lost their faith.

What they did do was

Acts 5:3-10
3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. 4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was also yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God!”
5 As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. 6 Then some young men got up, wrapped him in a sheet, and took him out and buried him.
7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?”
“Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.”
9 And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of conspiring to test the Spirit of the Lord like this? The young men who buried your husband are just outside the door, and they will carry you out, too.”
10 Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

They lied.
They did not have to, they could have kept what they gained.

Interesting to not v7. About 3 hours later.
Jesus was on the cross for 3 hours, taking all the sins of the world upon him.

Maybe it was a warning to the early church.
Sin is abhorrent to God that results in death, even for a believer.

But as I said, nothing in your quote would suggest they lost their faith.

You ever lied, sinned?
If so does that mean you lost your faith?

AMEN brother....and how many times do we see people totally disregard the fact that God chastens and even takes a man's physical life as part of being chastened.........too many people conflate being chastened with losing salvation.....it leads to many false and or erroneous beliefs.........

You write a lot of good things. I'm catching up on posts and am not able to be on as much as I'd like right now.

But this caught my eye..

"Good works are the outworking of the spiritual fruit produced by the Holy Spirit. IF the Spirit is a gift, then the fruit He produces is a gift too."

That would be saying that the gardener ( Holy Spirit) and the trees would be the same wouldn't it? Did you mean to say it this way?

Did you quote the right post?

Where does it say the Spirit is a gift..........by faith, which is the gift, we are born again from above by the Spirit, and the fruit is the by product of the Spirit dwelling is us by faith......

Not sure why you responded the way you did to my post........which did not say anything about the Spirit, gifts and or fruit....???

dcontroversal said:
The context determines the usage of the word......it does not mean repent as we would repent, nor does it indicate a mistake on God's part..........I look at the word and the context in verse 11 to indicate disappointment......not necessarily in what God had done, but rather the failure of SAUL and in verse 29 the context = God has nothing to be sorry for........One thing we cannot do is to bring God down on our level when it comes to the verbiage God uses to get a point across to us........we must view it with a higher application while understanding (or attempting to understand) God's nature and character......

vs 11.
nacham: to be sorry, console oneself
Original Word: נָחַם
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nacham
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-kham')
Definition: to be sorry, console oneself

vs. 29
nacham: to be sorry, console oneself
Original Word: נָחַם
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: nacham
Phonetic Spelling: (naw-kham')
Definition: to be sorry, console oneself

WRITES IN BIG LETTERS EVERYONE WILL SEE..

"READ ME! MY POST IS IMPORTANT! READ ME!

Proceeds to write normally just to troll y'all.. lol

You don't actually believe that is what Christ meant in Matt 7 do you?
Please take the time and show me how you came to that conclusion.

I have shown 500 times in this thread.....

Galatians teaches faith plus works to gain or finish salvation is a false gospel, has no power to save, is double cursed, and all who believe it are fools and bewitched....

What can I logically DEDUCE by MATTHEW 7

a. They called JESUS LORD <----an indication that they thought they knew him and or believed in him as evidenced by the use of LORD twice

b. They assumed their right to enter was guaranteed by the MANY WONDERFUL WORKS they have done in the NAME OF JESUS as evidenced by their own statements.....LORD LORD have we NOT DONE.....IN YOUR NAME <----RELIGIONS THAT NAME JESUS do this EXACT THING

1 + 1 = 2

I can rightfully conclude they they were supposed believers that put faith in their works

FAITH plus WORKS to gain entrance into the KINGDOM

JESUS SAID MANY (plenteous in NUMBER) will come before his throne claiming this......and MOST Christian religions teach FAITH plus WORKS to enter the KINGDOM..........

MY conclusions are VALID.................regardless of any and all that reject it...............

FAITH plus ANYTHING to earn salvation or entrance into the KINGDOM = a DIFFERENT DOOR and NO ENTRANCE

It is Christ, the root that produces fruit in the branches
If you can answer the question, what is the difference in receiving something by grace and receiving something as a gift, then we can talk about the verses I gave, and then if you can show me that good works are not part of the grace of God bestowed on us, I will admit my error.

Ephesians 1:6- Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Romans 12:6- Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 15:12-But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

...But I am afraid that just as Eve was DECEIVED by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be LED ASTRAY from your sincere and pure DEVOTION TO CHRIST. (see john 14:15-24 & luke 6:46) 2 Corinthians 11:3

Why do you think that BELIEVERS were warned not to be DECEIVED?

...He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who HEARS THE WORD and at once RECEIVES IT with joy. But since he has NO ROOT, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly FALLS AWAY. The one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell among the thorns is the man who HEARS THE WORD, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it UNFRUITFUL. But the one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell on good soil is the man who HEARS THE WORD and UNDERSTANDS IT. He PRODUCES A CROP, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

The Parable of the Weeds
...Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in HIS FIELD. But while everyone was sleeping, HIS ENEMY came and SOWED WEEDS AMONG THE WHEATS, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” Matthew 13:11-30

Both the weeds and wheat grow in the same FIELD.

...The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and THEY WILL WEED OUT OF HIS KINGDOM everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:38-43

Who will the angels WEED OUT of GOD'S KINGDOM? Aren't they supposed to belong to GOD'S kingdom first before they can be weeded out of it?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL APPEAR AND DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,(becoming DISOBEDIENT, because LOVE IS WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS) but he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:10-14

...."I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD; OBEY IT, and REPENT. But if you do not WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3

The church is the BODY OF CHRIST whom He will SAVE. Ephesians 5:23 WEEDED OUT OF every wickedness

So to those who reject and nullify God's word and refuse to take heed of God's warnings about the appearance of the DECEIVER with his FALSE CHRISTS, PROPHETS AND .TEACHERS, the LIARS who do not have the TRUTH in them...DO NOT BE ARROGANT BUT BE AFRAID…

...For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. Romans 11:21-22

...The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE.” Luke 3:7-9

...See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Hebrews 12:25

Good day mailmandan,

You wrote:

“It's not a theory. James 2:14 plainly reads - "says" he has faith (NKJV, ESV, NASB). Other translations say "claims" (AMP, CSB, NIV)."



The way to understand the passage is not to run from translation to translation. Use elements in the passage to figure out what is the proper understanding of the same. The use of Abraham as the example proves this is not a “mere” claim of having faith. It refers to real faith. You find this hard to accept as it would negatively affect your theory. Also one would of necessity have to “say” they have faith unless you know of some other way this can be initially expressed.



Post #82434 by UnderGrace explains it well.




You also wrote:

“Can that faith save him? (NASB) What kind of faith is that? -- Empty profession of faith/dead faith.”



The assumption about dead faith is based on your initial assumption about claim to have faith. It is also based on a severe misunderstanding of the passage in question.



Look at what the passage says:



What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? KJV



What is the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him? YLT



What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? RV



What good does it do, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but does not have any works? This kind of faith cannot save him, can it? ISV



My friends, what good is it for one of you to say that you have faith if your actions do not prove it? Can that faith save you? GNB



What auaileth it, my brethren, though a man saith he hath faith, when he hath no workes? can that faith saue him? GENEVA



What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? ASV



There is more than one way of looking at this passage and none of them do your cause any good.



As was said before there is no other way to initially express your belief in something other than to say it. James is simply saying such a belief is only beneficial in the matter of salvation when it is accompanied by works which are commensurate with that faith. So the,that faith,that cannot save is not a false faith, nor a mere claim of faith but a faith that is devoid of the appropriate works. Again it is the example used by James which informs me that he is not referring to false faith or a fake claim to faith.As Abraham’s faith was real so is the faith that is alone,which cannot save.

You call it, “Empty profession of faith/dead faith.” Do you realize what it is that makes the faith a mere profession or dead faith? Not that the person did not really believe but because this belief is not accompanied by the appropriate works,then it is a mere profession and dead as it serves no purpose. As is written:



"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."(Titus 1:16)



You also wrote:

“"Says-claims" to have faith is not the same thing as saying actually does have authentic faith like Abraham. So you disregard "says-claims" to have faith in James 2:14 and instead, modify it to mean "actually does have faith" but produces no works? It sounds to me like you teach salvation by works.”



I am not disregarding anything. The context of the passage determines the way we interpret the contents. The faith,being discussed as being,"said",by someone,is being compared with the real faith of Abraham and since Abraham’s faith was real then this is also a reference to real faith.



You wrote:

“Of course Abraham's faith was real and he showed that his faith was real by his works, just as all genuine believers do (James 2:18). In regards to James 2:21, go back and read post #83,329. "Justified by works" does not mean saved by works in the context of James 2:21. As I already stated, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).”



For whom is this evidence to be produced? Who are we justified before? What if there is no evidence? Is the person who believes/has genuine faith still saved?



You also wrote:

“Yes, if you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine. (NASB) *Those who do not continue were not TRULY disciples of Christ. *Also, in John 8:31-59, notice that the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turned out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of authentic belief resulting in salvation," as demonstrated in John 8:31-59. We also see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them. The demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) but they are not saved.”



You have obviously twisted this to conform to your theories. The real reason belief is not beneficial as was stated by James and in this case,is not because it “"falls short of authentic belief resulting in salvation,"” but because they failed to act/do in the manner commensurate with such belief/faith. The passages both clearly says the people believed, they had faith. I accept this but you want to theorize this away as if you could see the minds/hearts of these persons. The only proof that the faith they had was not in vain(not that it was not real or enough as you claim) is what they do afterwards. Their works. James says it clearly:



“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20)



Dead is not the same as not real and the discussion would have been pointless if James was discussing false faith vs. real faith. There would be no need to have the discussion. Dead refers to something of no value and of no use. Jesus never doubted that they believed but He knew they would not act upon this belief.



The parable of the sower confirms this situation,as all but the person who failed to understand the word,did come to believe. However only one went on to produce the appropriate fruit/works and so be fit for the kingdom of God.(Matthew 13:18-23)



You wrote:

“Paul was certainly not disobedient to the heavenly vision and preached the gospel everywhere he went. When we repent, we turn to God and works which follow are the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) but not the means of our salvation. Verse 18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me”



And the big question is; what happens if there are no works meet for repentance? Will you say ;those who have true faith and are really saved will have these works? But if the works have no bearing on salvation, then why are they there,with those who are truly saved? So the question remains; what if there are no works meet for repentance?Is that person still saved?



Again you wrote:

“Who said anything about continuing in sin that grace may abound?”



And:

“No need for oxymorons or straw man arguments. Genuine believers continue in His word, have already repented and believe in Christ for salvation.”



If works have no bearing on salvation then why not continue to sin so grace may abound? And if genuine believers continue in His word then are there non-genuine believers who do not? Was it that their belief was not strong enough for them to continue in His word or is it that their belief was negated and became dead because they did not continue in His word?

Without realizing it,a previous statement by you seems to confirm the true state of affairs.You wrote:

“Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.”

But scripture confirms the evil angels’ belief in God and what He is able to do. They should know even more than us as well.

“..the devils also believe, and tremble.”(James 2:19)



So what makes the difference? They believe in the devil according to you but they also have a belief in God. What is the difference? You say it, but apparently want it to apply only to the evil angels. Can one who does, “continuous evil works”,or who does not continue in His word, be a saved, genuine believer?

James is clear.....and the contrast is clear as well....mere belief in God contrasted against saving faith....the JEWS have the same problem to this very day....a mere belief in GOD, but no saving faith into CHRIST

THE DEMONS BELIEVE and GET EMOTIONAL......<----THAT IS THE CONTRAST.......and the CONTEXT is SHOW ME YOUR FAITH..............you guys need to get over this fallacy of believing this book peddles a faith plus works blend for justification before GOD.......

PAUL was clear....THEREFORE we conclude a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the DEEDS/WORKS of the law.......

Get over it.......

FAITH plus WORKS to gain, keep, top off, finish, embellish salvation is a lying false gospel with no power to save, double cursed and all that believe it are fools and bewitched <---GALATIANS

My response to you(post #84118)addresses most if not all of your comments here.Read that post carefully and answer the questions and truth will become evident.Also you should only compare passages of scripture when you properly understand them.As I said in the post referenced,context determines how we understand the contents.