Not By Works

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stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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Matthew55 said:
If you truly believe and have the baptism of the spirit, you will be indwelt. The byproduct of being indwelt is you will do the same things that Jesus does. Do you disagree. Hence come follow me and do what I do. We are not sheep, we are indwelt.
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safswan said:
You do the very thing I have warned about.And this is the the practice of everyone who teach as you do.All use the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus.Notice the encounter:

"And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple,and said
unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." [Luke 4:9-12]

Scripture was used by the devil but Jesus produced scripture that regulated and put into context that which was quoted correctly but out of context by the devil.

You also gloss over the passage in James as you claim, "he is not teaching on the faith that justifies us before God, but the faith that must be evident to be justified before men". This is obviously false as James clearly asks:

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)

Can faith alone save him?He is speaking of salvation.Are you saying it is salvation before men?He did not ask;can faith justify you before men?Does anyone even need to be justified before men?As I also said:

"Hence salvation is impossible without works and when he says:

“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)

And:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)

He is simply confirming the example given to prove his point and the example was that of the father of faith Abraham:

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

He is not saying works are for others to see but after looking at the example of Abraham he is saying;You understand(Ye see,Seest) how by works a man is justified.

There is no contradiction between Paul and James but if you ignore the passages in which Paul speaks to the role of works in the life of the child of God then you will believe as you do.Here is a reminder of one:

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)
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Am catching up on posts so someone may already have addressed this error I see in your post.


What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)

Can faith alone save him?He is speaking of salvation.Are you saying it is salvation before men?He did not ask;can faith justify you before men?Does anyone even need to be justified before men?

If you are speaking of salvation of the soul for the one who has faith here,
Matthew55 said:
If you truly believe and have the baptism of the spirit, you will be indwelt. The byproduct of being indwelt is you will do the same things that Jesus does. Do you disagree. Hence come follow me and do what I do. We are not sheep, we are indwelt.
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I agree to a point. Follow (at least to me) suggests being separate from the Lord. If we are indwelt, we hear His Voice in our Spirit, and when anointing fills us, we move as one with Him. Doing whatever He desires.

We don't all move the same way. As members we are individual soldiers, but separate giftings and ministrations. Yet moving as one with Him.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Rosemaryx said:
I am here right now to proclaim The LORD Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior who said " It is finished "...
Now let`s walk in the Holy Spirit who guides us into all good deeds through the power of Almighty God :)...
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Amen Rose....keep swinging hat sword sister....
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Matthew55 said:
Why in heavens name would James be teaching us about a faith that justifies us before man? Does man save us? No! That seems to be a proposterous position to take on what James clearly is teaching, "a faith that justifies us to God".


How do you come to the conlusion that James is teaching us a faith that justifies us to man and not God? I would be interested to here your explanation.
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Maybe the words "SHOW ME" and the fact that JAMES is making a contradiction between a mere belief in God and actual saving faith......If you think James is peddling a faith/works blend to gain, keep or finish salvation, you are sorely mistaken....because he is NOT peddling that!
 
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eternally-gratefull

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UnderGrace said:
The context determines the meaning since words have various applications.

James is NOT comparing true believers to false believers.

He is teaching to true Jewish believers and teaching them who they are in Christ.

Dead faith is NOT a faith that is mental assent ......it is a faith that is not engaged, it is inoperative it is not beeing demonstrated to the world

Jesus, uses the word in Luke 7:35 to denote evidence, when he said of His own works bearing evidence to who He was, "wisdom is justified by her children."

In other words, Jesus said, "I am shown to be who I am and who I say I am by the works that I do." This seems to be the exact same usage as that found in James 2.

In fact, in the context, James says, "You show me your faith without your works..." and "I will show you my faith by my works..." It is clear that the human court is in view in James 2.


This is not a you "will" have works because if this were true there would be no need for the exhortation this is you "should" have works to show who you are before God and so that others may believe.

Grace in the life of a believer is not compulsion!!! James makes it very clear we are under the Law of Liberty.
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Sorry sis i can not agree

Dead faith is no faith at all

James made this clear. Merely beliving in Jesus but not trusting in him is well, but not enough, even demons believe and tremble
 
GodsGrace101

GodsGrace101

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Matthew55 said:
Thank you for your reference, it was interesting. "rightly dividing" the word, for some, has come to another level. That level is dividing the word into those NT words that belong to the "law of Moses" (and can be ignored in regards to our salvation because they have been superceeded by the "gospel of grace") and the NT words that belong to the "gospel of grace" which are what we only need to be concerned with for our salvation.

So, I have heard that some Christians go so far as to say, the sayings of Jesus were grounded in the "law of Moses" and so we do not have to be worried about these words for our salvation, because the law of Moses is done away, and has been superceeded by the "gospel of grace". It is the words of Paul that we have to concern ourselves with in regards to our salvation, only.

Therefore "rightly dividing" the word means we put away those words associated with the law of Moses in the NT, and adhere only to those words associated with the gospel of grace.

That is why decon can say, any words that add to our salvation based on a few words of Paul, are false, even though words from Jesus adds to their gospel of grace. He won't tell you, but this small group believe that most of the words of Jesus in the NT should not be read, they should be "rightly divided" out of the word of God because they have to do with the superceeded and done-away-with law of Moses.

What do you think?
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I agree with you.

What those you speak of above are saying is that Jesus didn't know what He was talking about.
He didn't understand what He was preaching.
His three year plus ministry was a waste of time.
And He had to knock Paul off that horse so He could teach Paul what He REALLY meant throughout all Jesus' discourses.

Pretty shocking, if you ask me.

Plus, if we wanted to have a serious conversation about this -- not easy to do on this thread --- we would see that there is really no difference between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught.
The big mystery Paul speaks of is that salvation is also for the Gentiles.
Colossians 1:26
Jesus taught us how to behave and so did Paul.
Paul speaks of grace and grace always was shed on mankind...even in the O.T. -- God didn't invent it in the N.T.

Paul preached a lot about The Law because he was the pharisee of pharisees and was trying to explain how we're saved by faith because his brethren had been under the Law for so long and the pharisees were not teaching about the love of God.
Mathew 23:3

This is why Jesus said to do as the Pharisees say, but not as they do.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law --- the moral law.
Some speak as though Jesus came to abolish all law; a misunderstanding about what being under the law means.

I've asked many times for some here to explain what it means to be under the law but, of course, no reply will be forthcoming because it would mean admitting that though we are not under the law...the law is not abolished. It just went from the stone tablets to our heart.

So, I agree with you and I'm happy to see others that are willing to speak out.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Matthew55 said:
If you truly believe and have the baptism of the spirit, you will be indwelt. The byproduct of being indwelt is you will do the same things that Jesus does. Do you disagree. Hence come follow me and do what I do. We are not sheep, we are indwelt.
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Maybe you should study more.....and maybe the reason you are not a sheep is the fact you have not actually trusted Christ 100% yet.....faith plus works for or to keep is not a gospel that saves! <--See Galatians

For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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eternally-gratefull said:
Oh boy, i have heard it all now

The depths people will go to puff up all their good works, and spit on the cross
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Such is the way of those deceived and or deceiving.......it is obvious that Abraham was saved and justified by faith.....I agree with your assessment......to any lengths to discredit biblical salvation and place is squarely upon a man's back.......such foolishness
 
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eternally-gratefull

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dcontroversal said:
Such is the way of those deceived and or deceiving.......it is obvious that Abraham was saved and justified by faith.....I agree with your assessment......to any lengths to discredit biblical salvation and place is squarely upon a man's back.......such foolishness
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Yet it has been satans lie from the begining
 
U

UnderGrace

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eternally-gratefull said:
Sorry sis i can not agree

Dead faith is no faith at all

James made this clear. Merely beliving in Jesus but not trusting in him is well, but not enough, even demons believe and tremble
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Well, Mr. eternally-grateful you can disagree on occasion :)

Okay, okay I will explain that line that everybody misunderstands...let me find my notes
.............

images-1.jpg
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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stonesoffire said:
Am catching up on posts so someone may already have addressed this error I see in your post.


What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)

Can faith alone save him?He is speaking of salvation.Are you saying it is salvation before men?He did not ask;can faith justify you before men?Does anyone even need to be justified before men?

If you are speaking of salvation of the soul for the one who has faith here,


I agree to a point. Follow (at least to me) suggests being separate from the Lord. If we are indwelt, we hear His Voice in our Spirit, and when anointing fills us, we move as one with Him. Doing whatever He desires.

We don't all move the same way. As members we are individual soldiers, but separate giftings and ministrations. Yet moving as one with Him.
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I was editing this post because somehow two posts became united here and it's all screwed up. The 5 minute time was up apparently before I finished editing.

Just ignore this post....
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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eternally-gratefull said:
Sorry sis i can not agree

Dead faith is no faith at all

James made this clear. Merely beliving in Jesus but not trusting in him is well, but not enough, even demons believe and tremble
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I personally believe the contrast is between a mere belief in God and actual saving faith...the same problem the Jews have unto this very day.....they believe in God, but have no saving faith or trust into Christ.........
 
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eternally-gratefull

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Nanda007 said:
Hi! I'm brand new to this. But here's my take: we are ALL sinners, and when we believe and receive JESUS as our Savior, we are Saved (Salvation is a "down payment"), after that we must keep on the narrow path UNTIL the end (or our names couldl be "blotted out of the Book of Life"). WORKS is the result of a TREE which bears FRUIT. For us to "become a tree", we must FIRST receive the SEED (Word of GOD), then, keep watering it (abiding in the WORD), to then become a TREE....and after CONTINUOUS ABIDING, we will bear FRUIT.

My Bible says that the FRUIT of the spirit is joy, love, etc etc -> AND self control...so, why can't we HELP our brothers and sisters who are struggling on their way to BEAR FRUIT?

We are supposed to produce DISCILPES, this means we should have a RELATIONSHIp with people...WORKS is a FRUIT (a result) of a heart that is MATURE in JESUS.

I also believe we much keep ROYAL COVENANT TORAH, because YHWH will keep Covenant with those who love HIM and OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS.

We must rightly divide the Word of GOD.

For a GREAT teaching, watch Pastor Matthew Nolan and understand the revelation of Melchizedek, and how we are all KINGLY prints after our HIGH priest forever, Yeshua (Jesus). ---> https://www.torahtothetribes.com/teachings/

Shalom!
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Then we are not saved at all are we?

Is the cross a downpayment?
Is eternal life not eternal
Is being adoped as sons merely a formality which is not real?
Is grace something which must be earned?
 
GodsGrace101

GodsGrace101

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stonesoffire said:
Would you please define "have Jesus" GG101? Am wanting to see if we are thinking the same.
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I might twist it Stone.
I write pages to you and you reply with one sentence to say you disagree.

If you don't understand what "have Jesus" means
or "abide IN Jesus" means...

well, that might be the reason you're confused about some things.
You should try to understand what this means under your own steam...not mine.
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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stonesoffire said:
Am catching up on posts so someone may already have addressed this error I see in your post.


What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)

Can faith alone save him?He is speaking of salvation.Are you saying it is salvation before men?He did not ask;can faith justify you before men?Does anyone even need to be justified before men?

If you are speaking of salvation of the soul for the one who has faith here,


I agree to a point. Follow (at least to me) suggests being separate from the Lord. If we are indwelt, we hear His Voice in our Spirit, and when anointing fills us, we move as one with Him. Doing whatever He desires.

We don't all move the same way. As members we are individual soldiers, but separate giftings and ministrations. Yet moving as one with Him.
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Well, shoot...here that mixed up post is posted again. Is supposed to be to Matthew 55
 
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eternally-gratefull

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dcontroversal said:
I personally believe the contrast is between a mere belief in God and actual saving faith...the same problem the Jews have unto this very day.....they believe in God, but have no saving faith or trust into Christ.........
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Amen, no different than the religious today, they may believe in God, but is their faith in God or self?
 
BillG

BillG

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Matthew55 said:
It would be a little clearer if in Genesis 15:6 it had said, he believed in the Lord and was saved unto Eternal Life.

But it does not mention Abraham being saved? It does says, And the Lord accounted it unto him for righteousness. So Abraham is told that his seed/children would be numbered as the sands of the sea. Abraham believes this will happen, and the Lord accounted it unto him for righteousness. Just like anything that we do that is of a righteous nature. But this does not tell me that the Lord saved him for all eternity, because Abraham makes one statement that he believed what the Lord was telling him.

Abrahams faith was tried at that point and he passed the test. The big test that would perfect his faith came later, and he passed that test too. Now with a perfect faith, we know he will have Eternal Life with God. Before that final test, I feel like he was making his way to be found sanctified through his righteous acts as written in scripture, and do not believe he would have found sanctification unless he had followed the Lords will and offered his son as a sacrifice. if Abraham had rejected the Lords command to sacrifice his son, I feel that the Lord would have rejected him.

We too may have trials set before us, and what we do or how we obey will definately make a difference as to whether the Lord will accept or reject us also. Do we have a vibrant/living faith, and obey and see our faith perfected, or do we not obey and prove we have a dead faith. Regardless about our profession of fiath to our congregation on Sunday.
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The point I tried to make is that Abram believed and did what God called him to do.

I dont agree with

if Abraham had rejected the Lords command to sacrifice his son, I feel that the Lord would have rejected him.
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The reason being

Genesis 20:2-3
2 Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, “Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.”

So Abram lied.

But did God reject him?

Genesis 20:1-3

Abraham and Abimelech
1 And Abraham journeyed from there to the South, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and stayed in Gerar. 2 Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, “Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife.”

So we see that he did not believe in the promise previously given.
But the promise given was followed through.

A vibrant living faith as you say will see obedience or one that seeks obedience.
That's what genuine faith will produce.
We will not be 100% obedient, we will get it wrong.
Just like Abram did.
But God is faithful to his promise to those who are his.
And those who are, will hand to him like Jacob did.

So Abram had perfect faith?

Not really.

Do you have a perfect faith, one that leads to 100% obedience?
There's a difference between one who profess faith and one who does not.

What's the difference?
 
stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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GodsGrace101 said:
I might twist it Stone.
I write pages to you and you reply with one sentence to say you disagree.

If you don't understand what "have Jesus" means
or "abide IN Jesus" means...

well, that might be the reason you're confused about some things.
You should try to understand what this means under your own steam...not mine.
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Really GG....you misunderstand my question. I would never try to learn under anyones' steam.
 
GodsGrace101

GodsGrace101

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dcontroversal said:
The gospel encapsulates more than just the death, burial and resurrection of JESUS.....and as I have pointed out numerous times the O.T. drips with scripture that points forward to the messiah while the N.T. drips with scripture that points back to Christ.........

O.T. saints looked forward to the----->Messiah/JESUS<-----The New Testament Identifies and points back to JESUS

Rear sights--------------------------->CROSS<---------------------------------------Front sights-->Together both = clear picture

The correct message is found woven together in BOTH...................................
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The O.T. looks forward...
The N.T. looks back.

Thanks Dcon.

NOW could you please tell us all what the good news is....
and why Jesus had to die...

Which were my two questions and which the above does NOT answer.
 
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