Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

It's the ESV.

You do not understand what he believes at all,

Hey Eternally I'm not so sure you know what he believes. Budman told me strait up in this conversation that the "old man", doesn't die until our bodies pass away. I'm sorry man but you know as well as I do that this is wrong, like the difference between a fleshly view and a Spiritually changed view. He talks as if doing "works" (and I hate that word so much because I see nothing I do for the Lord as "work") "for" salvation and "because of" is no different, like they are for=because of. Come on man, you have to see this is a spiritually blind argument, he does not understand what being reborn of the Spirit is. What does Jesus say about that again? Still no cause for concern? I know I wish people would have been much more clear about His Spirit to me, I heard all this "Okay your saved, but we always sin still", stuff and of course in the flesh thought no change at all was what it was. Truly nothing, and it is only in love that I even make an audacious statement like this, only because He changed me and I'm commanded to love all and value truth above me comfort.

Please know I understand and remember that you come from the opposite side of the coin with major legal chains heaped upon you. So I appreciate your view as well, but brother the things Budman has said to me are cause for "him" to be greatly concerned, and for us to pray, I don't believe anything happen for no reason, he's here for a reason as are we. So honestly I really think in this case it might be you that doesn't get what he says he believes. My main point when I started this was only that "we will always sin", should not be the main doctrine coming from the mouth of one in Christ, even though I know it's technically true, it should be the POWER of Jesus to change men in power. Agree?

Hey Eternally I'm not so sure you know what he believes. Budman told me strait up in this conversation that the "old man", doesn't die until our bodies pass away. I'm sorry man but you know as well as I do that this is wrong, like the difference between a fleshly view and a Spiritually changed view. He talks as if doing "works" (and I hate that word so much because I see nothing I do for the Lord as "work") "for" salvation and "because of" is no different, like they are for=because of. Come on man, you have to see this is a spiritually blind argument, he does not understand what being reborn of the Spirit is. What does Jesus say about that again? Still no cause for concern? I know I wish people would have been much more clear about His Spirit to me, I heard all this "Okay your saved, but we always sin still", stuff and of course in the flesh thought no change at all was what it was. Truly nothing, and it is only in love that I even make an audacious statement like this, only because He changed me and I'm commanded to love all and value truth above me comfort.

Please know I understand and remember that you come from the opposite side of the coin with major legal chains heaped upon you. So I appreciate your view as well, but brother the things Budman has said to me are cause for "him" to be greatly concerned, and for us to pray, I don't believe anything happen for no reason, he's here for a reason as are we. So honestly I really think in this case it might be you that doesn't get what he says he believes. My main point when I started this was only that "we will always sin", should not be the main doctrine coming from the mouth of one in Christ, even though I know it's technically true, it should be the POWER of Jesus to change men in power. Agree?

Yea, I expect more from Jesus. He can't just leave us struggling with ourselves. He has the power. He is not a boring Person. It can't be a one sided relationship... God is definitely involved.. Because this spritual journey is wrecked without Him... In fact this life has become depressing for me without Him.. Striving on my own. I do want a relationship with God, but am just too disgusted with myself and by experience i know 100% am gonna fall, fail to be sinless, fail to love... Am a failure. So i can't maintain this relationship for sure. I donno why.. But i observe Him being faithful always despite my sinful nature.. But all i asked Him was to get me rid of myself... I have cried in an inexpressible way when i saw how wrecked my relationship with Him was becoming due to my nature and so the fear of falling loomed over me.. Now am very afraid to step into this relationship.. Am ashamed, the reminder of my nature, my very desires and feelings are a big shame to me... And with all those things looming over me, i don't even feel like approaching Him... nor do i feel like reading the Bible. I feel like am slipping... and... no one knows this miserable state of mine. I am depressed, i dont see any motive to wake up in the morning... No matter what i do, the fear of sinning or falling looms around me.. Ofcourse because i habitually sinned many times before but to be honest on the inside i didn't wanted to do it... I didn't wanted to ruin my relationship with God.. Now am depressed.. Confused... So much so that my studies is going low, my entire family is suffering from mental illness, on top of it my dad is always loaded with a lot of work including taking care of my granddad. And so i don't have enough time to spend with him... before we would go out together. I literally feel alone in this journey, no one can understand this battle, no one. Infact i came to this website expecting to meet only some Pharisees and Seducees and hypocrites but i have met some people like me... And it was comforting to know i wasn't the only one with this doubt that i had... like i never even knew about Calvinism, Armenianism etc. It made me realise, there have been ample discussions about this in history too. Well, am all numb and apathetic which ain't good for my studies and i know for sure its because of my relationship with God. Am trying to convince myself that God is good and friendly but.. Some Scriptures make me wanna run away from Him... Some things about His nature i don't understand. In actual, He has been loving towards me... But some Scriptures and some life issues make me get angry at Him... Very very angry.

You are confusing GODS work with mans work. Holiness and PRESERVATION is Gods work not mans. Same thing I’ve been saying for how many days now. You don’t discern that God accomplishes these things. Faithful is He (God) who will finish the work HE begun. But apparently in your doctrine, there is no room for any continuing work, NOT EVEN GOD’s.

He says we must put to death the old man,

Please answer this question: Do you believe how one lives their life after they become saved, will determine whether they go to heaven or hell?

I know right, I don't know how to make my words ant more clear than I already have. I think your words are very clear as well man, but there is this disconnect that for some I believe Paul outlines in 1 Cor 2:

6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

This part is the real kicker and the one I'm most referring too.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

This is the red alert in this "debate" or whatever, but I have spoken to eternally-gratefull about this topic before and understand the angle he is coming at it with a history around extreme legalism, and that he is very careful to make the distinction between works being "for" salvation and "because of" salvation. This is something Bud thinks is interchangeable, like you said just strait up making "works", or as I call it living in Jesus, a bad thing all together. As if Jesus came to punch our heaven ticket and we just go on as we were. NO that is powerless and insulting to the true and living God that not only condescended into His creation to lay down His life so that we might be reconciled to Him, but was also willing to put the wrath that the world was under on His only Son. This is how our God loves the world, and He CHANGES men, for real, on earth, here and now, all for His glory. As you well know.

Anyway brother I hope you have a great day, I pray you and your family be drawn closer everyday, and I truly pray that Budman and Milee777 specifically, are both greatly blessed in the way only our Creator can bless us and opened up to a whole new realm of truth no matter where our Father has them on their walk, in Jesus name. Amen

You haven't Jim. If you did so, you would no longer sin.

What you're advocating is rehashed, John MacArthur style Lordship Salvation.

You do not understand what he believes at all,

If the old man was completely dead we would be sinless.

We still sin because the old man is still their, he has been defeated, his end is sure and true, but sadly he is still there, until we die. This is what paulmwas saying in Rom 7.

As for saying we will always sin, i think it just means we have humbled ourselves to know we will never fulfill the law (fall short) not so much focus on sin, but the law, it also is what John said, if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves.

And yes, i was bound down with legalism, thanks for remembering bro!

I understand it. He asks can a person completely deny Jesus and still go to heaven. I don't see any point in asking such questions.

No you do not, your post showed you did not understand what he believes.

John also said that if we say we know Him and don't keep His commandments we are liars

I know we are not sinless. I know the flesh lusts against the Spirit. I know we're in a war until the day we die. I know we're kept by the power of God through faith. I know that it is God who finishes the work in us, I know that Jesus begins and finishes our faith, I know that it is God who works in us to will and to do.

So where do Budman and I disagree? Because I said that saving faith perserveres! To him, That's teaching a works salvation, even though I said it is God who keeps us and it is His Power that causes us to perservere.

I'm sorry if you don't believe this. But my Bible says God is faithful and able to keep us from falling, and even if we do fall, He's there to pick us up. So why do we need to ask, can I turn my back on God and will fully deny Him and live for myself and squeek in.

Even if we could, WHY WOULD WE WANT To?!!!

It boggles my brain that you guys are so adamently on this. Are you anti Lordship like Budman said he is earlier? By or are you just not reading the posts?

Ok, I'll bite. He's accusing me of being works salvation. Name ONE thing I've said that substantiates that claim?

Again, do you believe you persevere by your own power, do you believe salvation can be lost if you do not maintain it?

No and no. Have you not been reading? Where did I even hint at such things? It is not my power and it is not in my ability to maintain it.

Next...

What does that have to do with what i said, what is it wih you peopl refusing to understand what we believe,


So who is it that perseveres? You by your own power, or God by his power to keep you from falling?

Hese are two different things,


Again, you continue to prove you do not inow us at all

We believe we are given eternal life and we will (not might) be ressurected to heaven.

So your judging by saying we do not believe things we do.

I don’t know but budman is prety keen at seeing through people. He must have saw something, you should ask him