Trinity, lets make sense of it

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Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#182
Nov 21, 2012
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#182
exegete said:
Scientifically speaking, water can exist in all 3 states at the same time. It's called the 'Triple point' and every element/compound has one. For water, it is 32.02 degrees F at 6.11657 mbar.
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While I was referring to Einstein's statement that two objects of mass cannot occupy the same space at the same time, which would also apply to three, four or however many. Yet none the less I incorrectly used 'at the same place' rather than space so I thank you for correction since a place has space but it doesn't necessary mean the place is the same space.

three molecules of water can not exist at the same time at the same place.
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But you do bring up a good point regarding the co-existence of matter.

However, if not mistaken, I trust you will find that the 'Triple point' refers unto the enviromental condition where a water molecule can exist in any of the three states and can co-exist with other water molecules in either or both the other states at the same time. However, the triple point doesn't suggest that one molecule can be in three different states at the same time.
 
Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#183
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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#183
This member 'Zmouth' is banned for espousing the heresy that Jesus was a created being.
bygrace said:
The word was not created the word spoken was the very expression of God.
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The light that produced the audible and visual word that is heard did not exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, so yeppers the word was made by the created.

bygrace said:
Jesus is eternal because HE has always been.
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Even if one lacks the knowledge of the principle of eternal, the scriptures clearly demonstrates that he is not eternal so there is no excuse for dishonouring him. So is your statement was intended to honour him then I apologize for thinking you were.

Yet if in the beginning was the Word, then understanding that the eternal has no beginning, the Word was with God wherefore it is written, If God was your Father you would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God neither I came of myself but he sent me, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
John 8:54-55
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#184
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
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#184
Zmouth said:
The light that produced the audible and visual word that is heard did not exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, so yeppers the word was made by the created.



Even if one lacks the knowledge of the principle of eternal, the scriptures clearly demonstrates that he is not eternal so there is no excuse for dishonouring him. So is your statement was intended to honour him then I apologize for thinking you were.

Yet if in the beginning was the Word, then understanding that the eternal has no beginning, the Word was with God wherefore it is written, If God was your Father you would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God neither I came of myself but he sent me, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
John 8:54-55
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Wow...Jesus is not eternal. Wow, just wow!
 
Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#185
Nov 21, 2012
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#185
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
Wow...Jesus is not eternal. Wow, just wow!
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Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Tim 6:16
 
Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#186
Nov 21, 2012
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#186
>>>> PreacherOtruth

How do you give a scripture thumbs down except maybe for John 3:19-20 which explains why one would give it a thumbs down
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#188
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#188
zMOUTH" said:
>>>> Preacher4truth

How do you give a scripture thumbs down except maybe for John 3:19-20 which explains why one would give it a thumbs down
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First, I fixed the above for you. Preacher4truth, not Preacher0truth.

Secondly you take a verse out of biblical context to establish your errors, so stop being disingenuous in addition to deceitful, I disagreed with your usage not with Scripture.

That you've called me wicked via a Scripture address? It's just your callow nature on display and has nothing in me.

But congrats, you're in the top 5 of the heretical on this forum as you deny the truths of the person of Christ.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#189
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#189
Amazing isn't it, John 3:19-20 was written for those who give zMOUTH a thumbs down? I mean that's not narcissistic.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#190
Apr 22, 2013
13,583
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#190
Hevosmies said:
Problem with free will is that salvation is something man decides. A man dead in trespasses and sins. I feel bad that I didnt give God enough (all) the glory

Have you heard of the Calvinist scoreboard in a football game? The end score is shown at the beginning of the game. :D
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I've also come to understand the free will to choose Salvation thing is really stupid. Especially for the Born Again Child of God to argue for.

I KNOW in my OWN free will I would choose to sin ALL the time. Why the heck would i WANT free will now that I'm saved? I want HIS Will for my life.

Interestingly enough, whereas before, when I was dead because of sin, and didn't have a choice to NOT sin, I think the Born Again Child of God DOES have a choice to walk in the flesh, or walk in the Spirit. I don't believe this affects Salvation, but I think it DOES affect a whole lot of other things.
 
B

bygrace

Active member
#192
Dec 3, 2018
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#192
Zmouth said:
The light that produced the audible and visual word that is heard did not exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, so yeppers the word was made by the created.



Even if one lacks the knowledge of the principle of eternal, the scriptures clearly demonstrates that he is not eternal so there is no excuse for dishonouring him. So is your statement was intended to honour him then I apologize for thinking you were.

Yet if in the beginning was the Word, then understanding that the eternal has no beginning, the Word was with God wherefore it is written, If God was your Father you would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God neither I came of myself but he sent me, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
John 8:54-55
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wrong Jesus has always been HE is eternal. The allegorizing is completely unbiblical. Jesus said HE and the Father are One. God is the first Cause UNcaused. Therefore God is and has always been and so has the Son. maybe if you were more open to listening instead of Judging what you think one is saying, try asking.
 
B

bygrace

Active member
#193
Dec 3, 2018
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#193
Zmouth said:
The light that produced the audible and visual word that is heard did not exist before the creation of the heaven and the earth, so yeppers the word was made by the created.



Even if one lacks the knowledge of the principle of eternal, the scriptures clearly demonstrates that he is not eternal so there is no excuse for dishonouring him. So is your statement was intended to honour him then I apologize for thinking you were.

Yet if in the beginning was the Word, then understanding that the eternal has no beginning, the Word was with God wherefore it is written, If God was your Father you would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God neither I came of myself but he sent me, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
John 8:54-55
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the "word" in John 1 is not the written word but the very existence from the Beginning. John chapter one is clear. verses 1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Jesus is the "word"(logos) and HE was with God and always has been. Why? Because there was never a time that God did not exist. the water, ice, and steam the chicken egg all fail in explaining the Coe-eternal Godhead. They are nothing but prideful attempts to know what cannot be known fully. John chapter 1 is authoritative, not human reasoning.
 
CherieR

CherieR

Senior Member
#194
May 6, 2017
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#194
Hevosmies said:
The trinity is a confusing subject to many, no doubt about that. If you do a search you will find a ton of questions about the trinity from Christians and non-christians alike.
We have many different explanations for it. Like water ice and steam. The egg-shell, and the football illustrations.

If someone were to ask me if I believe in the trinity, I would say yes. And I have. But then as we started conversing I have been often accused of being a modalist. I had no idea what that is.

Here again is my view of it and how I explain it, so someone can tell me what "ism" im in: I believe in the Godhead. One God. We are made in God's image and we are a body/soul/spirit. How this would work with the Godhead is: Father = Soul, Jesus = body, Holy Spirit = Spirit.
I think its a great and simple way to explain it, if anyone can show me wrong from scripture i'll change my view obviously in a heart beat. I like it because I dont need extra-biblical catholic philosophical ideas and words added to scriptures like "persons" or "essences" or anything like that. Thats just too complicated in my opinion.

Its easy to find verses that prove the deity of Jesus. But its impossible to find a single verse that "proves" the trinity. Which is exactly my problem with it, if its that important God would surely have mentioned it, and there should have been a big controversy among the jews for it. But Paul never writes about it, thats why I believe the "Godhead" would be a proper and biblical word to use instead. This bothers me because when witnessing to people the trinity almost ALWAYS comes up, especially when talking to muslims, OY VEY!

What do YOU personally, believe about the trinity, how would you explain it? If you even believe in it. And if you dont, show scripture why not.
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I believe Jesus is God, the same God of the Old Testament who created the world. My beliefs, however, do not match up to the trinitarian view point as I see it. I heard the trinity described as one God in 3 persons or 3 in 1. This does not make any sense to me, sounds more like polytheism. The way I think of it is that we have a spirit and a body. My grandpa used to say when you die you come out of your body. I see the spirit as the person. When people say the Holy Spirit is not the Son or the Father it makes no sense to me. When Jesus died on the cross it says that he gave up the ghost..( see Mark 15:34-37) That is his Spirit and that Spirit is the person of Jesus himself. I believe about Jesus that God became a human and was born of the virgin Mary. In order for Jesus to get the full human experience, he had to give some things up such as omnipresence and he subjected himself to the frailty of flesh meaning that he also had to have food to eat, sleep and if he lost enough blood or could not breathe for a long enough time, his body would die. And Jesus did die on the cross but as it says in the Psalms, " you will not let your holy one see decay"( see Psalm 16:10), and Jesus rose again from the grave.
 
B

bygrace

Active member
#195
Dec 3, 2018
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CherieR said:
I believe Jesus is God, the same God of the Old Testament who created the world. My beliefs, however, do not match up to the trinitarian view point as I see it. I heard the trinity described as one God in 3 persons or 3 in 1. This does not make any sense to me, sounds more like polytheism. The way I think of it is that we have a spirit and a body. My grandpa used to say when you die you come out of your body. I see the spirit as the person. When people say the Holy Spirit is not the Son or the Father it makes no sense to me. When Jesus died on the cross it says that he gave up the ghost..( see Mark 15:34-37) That is his Spirit and that Spirit is the person of Jesus himself. I believe about Jesus that God became a human and was born of the virgin Mary. In order for Jesus to get the full human experience, he had to give some things up such as omnipresence and he subjected himself to the frailty of flesh meaning that he also had to have food to eat, sleep and if he lost enough blood or could not breathe for a long enough time, his body would die. And Jesus did die on the cross but as it says in the Psalms, " you will not let your holy one see decay"( see Psalm 16:10), and Jesus rose again from the grave.
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the Trinity is a concept which I believe is supported by the Word of God. God is one, and God is the Creator and God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit. The issue is those of us try to understand God from our limited ability. God is higher then us His ways are not our ways. To many, the Trinity does not make sense yet Jesus playing three roles as the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit does not make any sense too. Did Jesus pray to Himself? Did Jesus cry out to Himself? Did Jesus describe the Holy Spirit in John 14 -16 as Himself? No.
 
CherieR

CherieR

Senior Member
#196
May 6, 2017
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#196
bygrace said:
the Trinity is a concept which I believe is supported by the Word of God. God is one, and God is the Creator and God is the Son and God is the Holy Spirit. The issue is those of us try to understand God from our limited ability. God is higher then us His ways are not our ways. To many, the Trinity does not make sense yet Jesus playing three roles as the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit does not make any sense too. Did Jesus pray to Himself? Did Jesus cry out to Himself? Did Jesus describe the Holy Spirit in John 14 -16 as Himself? No.
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I think we all have our ideas about God and how he is like. I have believed in the trinity before but as I examined my beliefs my view has changed some. God is very big and we are small. I can only comprehend so much as you said, his ways are higher. I am open to hear others viewpoints but I tend to believe what makes the most sense to me.
 
B

bygrace

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CherieR said:
I think we all have our ideas about God and how he is like. I have believed in the trinity before but as I examined my beliefs my view has changed some. God is very big and we are small. I can only comprehend so much as you said, his ways are higher. I am open to hear others viewpoints but I tend to believe what makes the most sense to me.
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Yes the problem is we cannot fully Comprehend all that God is, but we can apprehend. The word of God is our only source of who God is as special rev. We have general rev which is creation. Rom 1 says that in Creation we see the Godhead even the eternal existence

Gen rev
Special rev.
and illumination in the relationship with God through Christ in Salvation. We receive enough of Who God is for righteous living and appropriate worship. For me, you, or any other here to think we can fully know all about the Nature of God is prideful and not approaching Gods Nature reverently and with humbleness. Don't like the word trinity Ok, then use Godhead as the Bible does and see all three in the Word of God and yet still one.
 
CherieR

CherieR

Senior Member
#198
May 6, 2017
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#198
bygrace said:
Yes the problem is we cannot fully Comprehend all that God is, but we can apprehend. The word of God is our only source of who God is as special rev. We have general rev which is creation. Rom 1 says that in Creation we see the Godhead even the eternal existence

Gen rev
Special rev.
and illumination in the relationship with God through Christ in Salvation. We receive enough of Who God is for righteous living and appropriate worship. For me, you, or any other here to think we can fully know all about the Nature of God is prideful and not approaching Gods Nature reverently and with humbleness. Don't like the word trinity Ok, then use Godhead as the Bible does and see all three in the Word of God and yet still one.
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I am ok with the term Godhead but am not so sure about trinity. I do believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However I don't really see the Holy Spirit as being distinct from the Father or the Son. Sometimes the Spirit is spoken of as the Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ and Jesus also said God is Spirit. When someone says Spirit of God or Spirit of Christ, this is the same Holy Spirit being spoken of.
 
B

bygrace

Active member
#199
Dec 3, 2018
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#199
CherieR said:
I am ok with the term Godhead but am not so sure about trinity. I do believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However I don't really see the Holy Spirit as being distinct from the Father or the Son. Sometimes the Spirit is spoken of as the Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ and Jesus also said God is Spirit. When someone says Spirit of God or Spirit of Christ, this is the same Holy Spirit being spoken of.
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OK i'm not going to beat ya up :).

If you do not see the distinction of the Holy Spirit from the father or the Son can you tell me where the father and the Son is in

John 14 :16-17 another "helper" "the Spirit of truth"
John 14:26

John 15:26
John 16:7, 8,13-14
Matthew 12:31-32
and in the Old,
Gen. 1:2; Job 26:13; Is. 32:15). in context to the creation

the Sprit of God , the Spirit of the Lord, eternal Spirit


All of these speak about the Holy Spirit in context to what HE does with distinction from the Father and the Son Yet still God
 
CherieR

CherieR

Senior Member
#200
May 6, 2017
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#200
bygrace said:
OK i'm not going to beat ya up :).

If you do not see the distinction of the Holy Spirit from the father or the Son can you tell me where the father and the Son is in

John 14 :16-17 another "helper" "the Spirit of truth"
John 14:26

John 15:26
John 16:7, 8,13-14
Matthew 12:31-32
and in the Old,
Gen. 1:2; Job 26:13; Is. 32:15). in context to the creation

the Sprit of God , the Spirit of the Lord, eternal Spirit


All of these speak about the Holy Spirit in context to what HE does with distinction from the Father and the Son Yet still God
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Well that's good you're not gonna beat me up. 😉😄 Thanks for the verses. I intend to check them out.
 
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