Not By Works

this is only true if the only possible motivation for honesty is fear of death.

dude, if you could see that a 'living sacrifice' is a Thanksgiving or freewill offering, not a sin or guilt offering, maybe you would finally understand why actual believers actually do try to live righteously, and you would understand why so much of your constant accusations are nothing but slander & strawmen

i desire this for you

No, you are definitely WRONG. We Took It From SCRIPTURE Itself:

John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”

John 14:16-18 (HCSB)
16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

Hebrews 13:5 (HCSB)
5 Your life should be free from the love of money. Be satisfied with what you have, for He Himself has said, I will never leave you or forsake you.

Philippians 1:6 (HCSB)
6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.


Shall I GO ON? There are LOTS MORE VERSES that Support OSAS.

Sorry VCO.
I have to disagree with the above.
The fact is we will be judged according to how we judge others.

Matthew 7:1-3

Do Not Judge
(Luke 6:37–42)
1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

What I disagree with is your second quote above.

Particularly with regards to FRUIT INSPECTOR.

Matthew 13:24-30

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

So if we are fruit inspectors looking for fruit then we are looking for fruit.
If we are doing so then we are giving a level at which we determine whether they are saved or not.

If we say they are not saved then we are judging.

What a way to discard Scripture, just claim it as a verse that proves a doctrine that you don't like, then you can trash it.

Why not try believing your Bible instead, though you cannot without God's Spirit? God did in fact choose whom he wills to save based upon nothing good or bad in them, and saves none other. Deal with it.

Ephesians 5:3-6 (NKJV)
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.


I'd REPENT if I were you.

Only if one is in Christ.


Not in Christ
Not my argument. As our Lord and Savior was speaking of false prophets he broadened the sphere to incorporate all who profess him yet were producing ill fruit; iniquity.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:20-23 KJV)

P4T

Can we agree that it's a hard concept to understand?

I believe that God knows those who will accept him and those who will not.
Yet I do not know those who he has saved.
That's why I keep pressing in.

I have 4 kids and praise God they are all believers, walking in their own faith and not mine.

But I would be devastated if they were not but would be more devastated if they died not being saved.

So how could I deal with it thinking that God chose to save them?

Do emotions take over reality?

Why? Easy-believism.

Those warnings you posted, yeah those are for the unbelievers, you know? I know its an epistle to the EPHESIANS and the church in there but uhh. Lets just be consistent here.

Decon and I have a fundamental disagreement on the Gospel of Christ. And this has been an ongoing disagreement. So we don't hold back much in our back and forth.

As far as your Question, I believe Jesus, the Word of God which became Flesh, cleanses us of our sins. As the Word of God, He promised that "After those days" He would forgive our sins Himself, and He would administer God's Laws on our hearts Himself. (Jer. 31: 31-34)

Prior to "those days" there was in place a Priesthood which consisted of Levites, who performed ceremonial, sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of sins (defined as transgressing God's Laws), and also they were anointed to administer God's Word.

Ex. 28:41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.

These "Works of the Law" for the cleansing of sins were to be in force "Until the Seed should come" as Paul stats in Gal. 3. He was having trouble with a Mainstream Religion of his time which didn't believe the promise of the change in the Priesthood spoken by Word of God in Jeremiah and other places, and refused to accept that Jesus was this Word of God. So even though He had fulfilled many of the prophesies about Himself in the Law and Prophets, they did not believe He had become their High Priest, so they continued to further (their version) of the "works of the Law" given by God to Moses for the justification of sins.

Paul had quite a time with them trying to force their version of these "obsolete" Works of the Law on the gentiles and they were "bewitching" the Galatians as well.

As Paul teaches:

Rom. 3:
26 To declare, I say, at this time (After those days) his righteousness ( not "works of the old Priesthood) that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? (goats blood sprinkled on the alter) Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Given by God to Moses for the cleansing of sins until the Seed should come)

Decon believes the New Covenant wasn't the change in the Priesthood as the Law and Prophets teach, which is confirmed by Heb 7. He believes a religion which teaches this change in the priesthood also included the entire Law and Prophets. Even though Jesus Himself said He didn't come to destroy them, but to preserve them. This teaching is widely accepted in the religions of the land, but is not supported by all the Word's of the Christ.

Heb. 7:
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The old priesthood was given Specifically to Levites, Jesus was from the Tribe of Judah, so the "Law" was changed so He could become our High Priest, even though He wasn't a Levite.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The message of the Christ, the Word of God which became flesh from the very beginning to the end has been to "Repent, turn to God, and bring "works" worthy of repentance. This is what Paul taught both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So I believe the Christ, which said: "Before Abraham was, I am" has been consistent throughout His Ministry and has kept His Promises He gave from the beginning. And that is to show Mercy to anyone who would listen to Him and "DO" as He says.

But this teaching was not believed in the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, nor is it believed on in many religions which call Him Lord, Lord today.

Sorry for the long post, but I needed to answer your question clearly. Let me know if you have any questions.

I don't think it is a hard concept to understand, it is a hard concept for many to accept. That is why people reject it, they don't like it, they don't think God is fair, thus Romans 9:20.

So, people want to understand it. OK. How much has the person studied it? That will tell me if they really want to understand God's truth here, and it is God's truth.

Election is the milk of the word.

Election, predestination or foreknowledge? None of these teach that God chose based on who would believe. Not one. If so, then it is due to merit, not grace. But since people reject the Sovereignty of God in election and salvation they add that to the texts and meanings and say God looked down through time and saw who would believe... Again, that is merit, not grace.

If it did teach this hypothetically speaking, then the person isn't saved by God's grace or by God alone, he instead merited salvation and was rewarded eternal life based upon choosing God. He can then boast which is contrary to a careful reading of 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

Decisional regeneration is a newer doctrine, probably around 150 years old, it is not the Gospel.

What have you read so you can understand this more fully?

I am glad your children are walking in faith, and hope they continue to do so.

Chapter six and seven's context continues into eight as you say. However Paul proclaims in verse two of chapter eight His deliverance from the Law of sin and death which he claimed to be in service to through his flesh in verse 7:23, 25.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:22-25)

Chapter seven's use of the word mind is dealing with head knowledge; knowing the law and desiring to serve it because you know it is good and makes sense to you to do so. This did not work for Paul nor will it work for us. The only way is Jesus Christ.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1-4)

Paul claims he had been Made me free from the law of sin and death. No longer in captivity to the Law of sin which which is in His members. HE HAS BEEN MADE FREE! That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Rom 8:2-4; 6:6,7)

Set free from the Law of sin and death. Our old man crucified with with HIM that the Body of Sin be destroyed. That Hence forth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin through Jesus Christ. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
(1Pe 2:24 KJV)

Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

it's the harvesters who separate the wheat and tares, and those are angels, not us.

good thing too as we are very likely very unqualified to inspect

I obey the BIBLE. However you, in my opinion, have chosen a different path. So be it.

The Strong's Definition for the GREEK WORD JUDGE is as follows:

" properly to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish :- avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. "


That is NOT DISCERNMENT AT ALL.

Matthew 7:20 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.

That takes Discernment.



However I will not Argue with you.


2 Timothy 2:14 (HCSB)
14 Remind them of these things, charging them before God not to fight about words; this is in no way profitable and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Hi gb9, agree and I appreciate your biblical insight, read your post when ever I can, always.

Living in the Spirit
Galatians5:16
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Romans8:2-4
a). 2) For 'in Christ Jesus' the law of the Spirit of life 'has set you free;' b). from the law of sin and death. 3) For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4) so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Sorry you feel that way about me.

I didn't say you had chosen a different path.
I just gave expressed my thoughts on your post.

So obviously I don't obey the Bible.
I would have expected that from others but not you.

Thanks for your response out of love.

Yep sure is

I ASSUME you are talking about the APOCRYPHA books. They are not considered Part of the Canon of Holy Scriptures, because the Author or the Prophet of the times, did not Authenticate them with MIRACLES. They can be valuable as History or commentaries of the TImes, BUT should never be considered Equal to 66 books of GOD's WORD, Inspire by GOD Himself.

Hi VCO,
This is just too sweet.
YOU make the comment on judgment and then want to teach ME what it means.

Let's go over what you stated:

In post no. 78,879 you said:

Here is why those who are so adamant against us, and where I think their CONFUSION lies:


1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

To which I replied that God did not go on vacation and left YOU in charge. Post no. 78,883

If we examine your statement we find:

1. There is a "those" and there is an "us". This is interesting because I thought there was only ONE Body of Christ. I thought we were all brothers in the Lord, with just some disagreements between us. It seems to me we agree on the big stuff...

2. The "those" (that don't agree with you), according to you, DO NOT have the spirit of God because they do not accept the things that come from God, because they are foolishness to them.


Now, I always use this verse to those who do not know God.
It would seem that you believe those who do not agree with YOU, do not know God.

Now, would you say that this is discernment OR JUDGEMENT of someone's SOUL??

I think you have enough verses up there to figure this out on your own.

Oh. And...

3. You should never assume what someone knows or does not know.
Because someone does not agree with you does not mean THEY are wrong...
could be YOU are wrong.

This should be a topic of its own. I might make one. How does the devil "sow" people?

I know this is one of the favorite proof texts for the serpent seed doctrine.

It's not a doctrine I don't like P4T.
It's a doctrine that is not in the bible and is found nowhere in ALL of scripture, including the O.T.
I find it amazing that no one in 1,500 years of Christian history didn't think of this awful doctrine and it took some men in the year 1,500 AD or so to come up with this unbiblical idea.

I could then assume that YOU discard the following verses:

John 3:16
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
John 12:32
John 14:21
Acts 16:31


and so many many more.....
Deal with it.