The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation

That's pretty silly, especially consider one of the verses I quoted says that the gathering of the saints happens 'after the tribulation of those days' in a passage about the great tribulation.


I am not defying any of that. Honestly, you come off as rather obnoxious with your declarations and accusations. And you know who the accuser of the brethren is, don't you. Why don't you be a bit more humble and personable about just having a Bible discussion where we can learn. It makes me wonder if the reason you resort to this kind of rhetoric could be insecurity because you do not feel that confident in your position.

If you can spin some verses to fit into the pre-trib scenario, that does not mean that they are actually pretrib. My approach is to show passages of scripture that associate the rapture/gathering with a certain point in time. That then serves as a basis for how we interpret other verses. Pre-tribbers typically filter passages through a pre-trib lens-- thinking of how they work through their pretrib theory, without considering other alternatives.

I am not defying passages in Revelation. If you want to be persuasive, you should at least quote the verses you think are pre-trib, and explain how you fit that into the pre-trib theory. Then we can talk about how that is legit.

Your argument that Jesus returning with His saints disproves prosttrib seems particularly foolish since post-trib since you are arguing the idea that the saints are raptured, meet the Lord with the air, and then return with him.

Is there even a church in Sardis/ Sart now? I mean a congregation, not ruins.

You think those and our others are to be swept off the table to be rejected in favor of your single verse in mat that MUST BE REFITTED to promote a belief that is simply pulled from thin air.

You can NOT possibly read all my verses and conclude what you do.
It is erroneous,impossible,and is PROVEN HANDS DOWN to be false

That is WHY the postrib doctrine NEVER,EVER incorporates the heart of heaven......THE BRIDE /GROOM compon

That is WHY postrib rapture doctrine is 90% anti pretrib,the rest is a lifelong 1000 page OT scrambled non issue thesis,or mat 24 rearranged belief system.

Rev 14 read it and ask why you defy 1 thes 4

Question for you. Since God saved Noah from the world wide flood, Lot and his family warned to leave from His wrath to fall on S&G, and etc, why would our Heavenly Father who is perfect, leave His faithful children with the degenerate sinners to b punished during the GT?

Noah survived the flood, he did not escape it. Do you think it was easy living on the ark? Read Revelations concerning the 5th seal and tell me God's opinion on the death of the saints.

I'd prefer the Ark to the flood any day. I don't have to read anything because I believe my Heavenly Father would not punish me as if I were a sinner. Simple attribute of a father and Father.

The saints in the tribulation overcome by the glood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. Will they be degenerate sinners? Is God angry at them?

Did God rapture Noah or Lot off the earth when he poured out His judgments? Did He rapture Israel out of the land? Aren't the plagues in Egypt the most similar thing in the Old Testament to the various calamities poured out in Revelation?

Never can you find God punishing His children. Those that convert after the Rapture will sadly b persecuted by the ac. Of course God isn/t angry at His saints, do you have to ask?

It does seem like pre-trib does appeal to those who do not have suffering as a part of their paradigm of what Christianity involves. That alone doesn't prove it false, but does seem to have that appeal. I suspect some pre-tribbers cringe and face palm when they see other pre-tribbers arguing for pre-trib based on the idea that God doesn't want Christians to suffer. Peter wrote 'Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. " There were Christian slaves suffering for righteousness sake under the hands of their masters. There were also plenty of saints tortured and/or put to death for their faith.

Never can you find God punishing His children. Those that convert after the Rapture will sadly b persecuted by the ac. Of course God isn/t angry at His saints, do you have to ask?

You clearly know nothing of God nor the Scriptures. Christ was beaten and murdered in public. If they did that to the Master, what exactly are you expecting them to do to Christians?

A mind boggling statement...how many of Christ's disciples were put to agonizing deaths? Are you out of your mind!?

You are teetering on blasphemy.

Show me where God 'punishes' the saints who are on the earth during the Tribulation. Can you show me that verse in the Bible?

As far as God 'punishing', I'm not sure if a translation uses that in regard to fornicators in I Thessalonians 4 or not. One translation says God is the avenger of all such, regarding he who defrauds his brother in such a matter.

Otherwise, I can't think of any verses about God 'punishing' saints in the New Testament. But there is a verse about suffering according to the will of God, verses about suffering with Jesus and reigning with Jesus, etc.

Have you read the part in the gospels about taking up and following Jesus?

"The Church which is His body" has experienced "tribulations" and "persecutions" since its beginning (and all through its existence on the earth). The Thessalonians did. Paul acknowledged this (2Th1:4). We are not awaiting a [future] specific time period in order to experience it (otherwise, the majority of "the body of Christ" will have died [and has died] before it even commences). OUR tribulations and persecutions occur now (and have all through the Church's existence on the earth [i.e. "this present age [singular]"]). We're not avoiding that fact. That is not the reason we hold to pre-trib, to somehow [wish to] "escape" that future specific time period/or any tribulations/persecutions.

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Certainly I believe Jesus is our God and I believe His Father is the Most High God and His God just like Jesus says here four times:

Revelation 3:12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

putting

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You clearly don't know me. Have you read Is 53;4 'Surely He took up our pain and bore our suffering...'? Yes there will b persecution from the world but certainly not punishment from God. If you think He wants to punish you along with sinners of course you can.

lol, what's she putting in his head her knitting?