Not By Works

you are now saying that what i meant with my own comment is a matter of opinion?
that your twisted mischaracterizing about what i meant and what i was referring to by what i said is more accurate than my own knowledge of what i myself intended to communicate ?

lol that's rich.

instead of studying Matthew 17:24-27.

are you maybe waiting for saturday before you can concentrate on the word of God?

Again you ignore the Arminian view that a person can lose their salvation. Your response is the Calvinist view of OSAS.
I am a Calvinist.

Then why do you think a person who has savng faith and has some works, may eventually land in hell?

Thats a contradiction of what James said.

Either

1. The bible contradicts itself since James says faith AND works justify.

2. We have here a misunderstanding of the words: Works of the Law and Works.

There's a big difference.
Find out the difference....and you'll understand everything.

Oh my. Back where we started.

We DO have to believe,
and we DO have to obey "some commands".
This does NOT put us back under the law.

The law, the Mosaic Covenant, said that Israel had to obey God and follow the commandments in order to be saved. They said they'd do it, but they COULDN'T. Why? Because they didn't have the help of the Holy Spirit. This is the only big difference between the Mosaic C. and the New C.

The New C. gives us the POWER of the Holy Spirit in ORDER TO obey the commandments.
Jesus told the Apostles to wait in Jerusalem and they would be empowered by the Spirit.
Acts 1:8

We now have an advocate with the Father, Hebrews, and it doesn't depend only on ourselves.
We can now trust Jesus to make up where we fall off....now it depends on our faith and not on our works, to be saved.

Abraham had faith,,,but when God told him to leave Ur, he did...he always obeyed God.
I refer you also to Genesis 18:19.

The Israelites tried to keep the law without loving God...As soon as Moses left they built the golden calf...THIS is trying to WORK your way to God under the Law.

We LOVE God and work because we WANT to.

jESUS said the son was lost. Not me.
Luke 15:24

Jesus is telliing the parable as HE wishes it to be understood.

What does LOST mean in the bible?
Physically lost?
Dead?
Dead to the spirit of God?

You know the answer...


The father NEVER assumed the son was dead, I went through this with @NoNameMcgee and even HE agrees that nowhere is physical death mentioned.

What?
I believe a person CAN lose their salvation.
The son was saved.
lost.
saved.

Calvinists also believe a person could be lost...but, of course, they believe they were never really saved to begin with.

only the first blue paragraph you put was originally something i said. this is the subject of the quote, which is from over a year ago in a different thread -

Colossians 2:20-23
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

studydude does not exactly have a reputation for honest or accurate representation of facts. in fact he has a reputation for deliberate misrepresentation of the truth.

I NEVER said I believe your first sentence!

If a person has saving faith and does his best to keep God's commandments and follow the Lord Jesus, he WILL be saved.

Also, if you've noticed, I don't like using the word hell.
I like to concentrate on the positive and do my best to warn people to obey God so they could end up with Him. (obey Him by following the Holy Spirit---not by doing works of the law).

I wish I could know one way or another but the concept is one of the dividing differences of Calvinism and Arminianism. Both are very Biblical. I studied their writings and both have a multitude of verses backing up their opposing beliefs. That being said I'm a Calvinist.

The Law and Prophets taught justification by Faith. Paul just furthered a teaching that was already there. He said so. He called it the Gospel of Christ where it is written therein "The just shall live by Faith". But if a person doesn't trust the Word of God which became Flesh enough to follow His instructions, as did Abraham, Noah and the rest of our examples of the "Faithful" then that is not faith. "Many" who come in Christ's name preach it is, but as James points out, dead faith isn't Faith. And Paul understood this perfectly.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Abraham was a "Doer" of God's Law. (Not the Works of the Law for justification of sins the Christ gave to Levi 430 years after Abraham obeyed God, "Till the Seed should come", Abraham had God's Laws, but Levi wasn't even born yet. This Law was "ADDED" 430 years later as Paul tells us in Galatians 3)

Abraham did more than just serve the Christ with his lips. We are to have his Faith.

Fran seems to understand this, while you don't. You would do well to pay attention to her understanding, which seems centered in scripture, not modern religious tradition.

You still do not get it.

These are moses words.

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen

And if you have any questions, Paul made it clear exactly what Moses said and meant.

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed iseveryone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

The fact you think anyone was ever saved by obedeince to the law just destroys anything you say, If you can not realise the law can ONLY CONDEMN, because NO OnE CAN OBEY IT. Just goes to prove you can not understand the gospel of Grace.

Instead of trying to teach, You need to go reread and study hard. And Ask God for guidance, remembering, Satan comes as an angel of light, and if you do not lay aside all pride. You may hear from one, thinking it is the other, and never find truth.

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.


These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)


...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13


...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?


..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.


...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19




Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.


The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.


Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?




So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

Rrad chapter 3.....No one keeps it or has and ALL THE WORD HAS BECOME GUILTY WITH MOUTHS shut because NO ONE KEEPS THAT WHICH CONDEMNS........

You guys take the cake for ignorance or willful deception....you quote chapter 2 whichblays the foundation for chapter 3 and then conviently leave off chapter three.....

Chapter 2 Keep the law to be justified before God

Chapter 3 Guess what...no one can do chapter 2 because we are ALL GUILTY ALREADY

Therefore we CONCLUDE a man is JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS of the law...

You guys sink to the lowest level of deception when it comes to the word and make no mistake, you all will pay the ultimate, eternal price if you keep conflating the word into that whichbit does not teach!

I'm not here to teach.
God forbid.
James 3:1

People in the O.T. were saved the same way people in the N.T. are:
BY FAITH.

End of story.

But we do have to obey God.

Oh my gosh.
Read your last sentence.
You believe OUR DOCTRINE will save us????

Wow. Speak of legalism!

Sorry, they do not contradict and Fran, the confusion is on your part......it cannot be both when One clearly states before GOD a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS/WORKS of the law! JAMES does not teach that works JUSTIFIES BEFORE GOD.....regardless of your inability to distinguish between the two lines of thought....

Romans -->Before God
James -->The above seen by men dia works

Wake up and come on line with the truth Fran...you could be a great witness if you would but surrender to the TRUTH!

D,
I'm sure you know that not everything could be received from the bible alone.
I give you the Trinity. How many do you suppose would ever come up with that theology if it were not for bijblical scholars, theologians, etc. ?
Not many.

So why don't we look to these men who studied Justification and Sanctification because, as I see you know, the terms were sometimes used interchangeably in the N.T. Paul was not very careful with his words because he didn't know Dcon would be born one fine day.

Here is a good explanation:

Christ has won both justification and sanctification for His people. Both graces are the concern of faith in Jesus Christ, but in different ways. In justification, our faith results in our being forgiven, accepted, and accounted righteous in God’s sight.

In sanctification, that same faith actively and eagerly takes up all the commands that Christ has given the believer. We dare not separate or conflate justification and sanctification. We do distinguish them. And, in both graces, we enter into the richness and joy of communion with Christ through faith in Him.

source: https://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-are-justification-and-sanctification/