The Rapture of the Church is after the Tribulation
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RE 11 Thes 2;6 the reference to 'he' and 'his' both are used to denote a he, him, her, and they. It's something that has the power to hold back the ac reign. So it could be the Holy Spirit, the body of Christ (the Church) or someone else. There are a lot of Christians all over the world and speaking for myself I hope I would b able to discern a deceptive character coming out. The believers would surly peg this guy yeah and some will b fooled.
I am sure you know this does not prove your point. The ressurected people (lazarus and others on the day he died) died again, and had to go through that, They did NOT have their glorified bodies, they did NOT have the things which they would recieve after having been judged, And even abraham was in paradise, Which is the resting place of all the saints UNTIL the ressurection.
But I am also sure non of this matters to you
But I am also sure non of this matters to you
Luke 23:42-43 And he said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. (43) And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Your willingness to twist the scripture to fit your narrative is quite amazing!!!
Lazarus was raised by Jesus four days after he died but you have no idea if he died again before Jesus died and was resurrected with Him but that wont stop you from making that assumption; "(Lazarus and others on the day he died) died again":
John 11:39-40 Jesus saith, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time the body decayeth; for he hath been dead four days. (40) Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou believedst, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
Then you go on to say those souls who with their bodies who were resurrected with Jesus and appeared unto many "died again" though you have ABSOLUTELY no scripture to prove these souls didn't go with Jesus after His resurrection:
Matthew 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. (51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Especially in light of this passage:
Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;
I primarily use the ASV in my links so the wording is slightly different than the KJV but the overall meaning is the same:
ASV ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:4-7 he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
KJV ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:4-7 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
ASV ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:4-7 he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. (7) For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
KJV ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:4-7 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Yes I agree that the rapture happens at the last trump! But I do not see any trump mentioned at Jesus second coming that is recorded here:
Revelation 19:11-21 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:11-21 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; (18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. (19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (21) And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
What's comical is the fact that I provided over 100 verses in my link and you can't even figure out how to open it much less be able to properly interpret it:
https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/
https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/
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You had better reread Revelation chapter 14 as it is very clear that Babylon has fallen BEFORE the Son of man appears upon the white cloud to send forth His angels to harvest:
Revelation 14:8-16 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. (14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Revelation 14:8-16 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (13) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. (14) And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
In order for you to say something as ignorant as this proves you do not understand the difference between the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd heaven:
"And since Jesus sends his angels to gather them in heaven,not earth,we MUST be seeing rev 19"
I am not even going to attempt to teach you the difference but I will provide Mark's account with Matthew's so just maybe you will grasp some clues:
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
"And since Jesus sends his angels to gather them in heaven,not earth,we MUST be seeing rev 19"
I am not even going to attempt to teach you the difference but I will provide Mark's account with Matthew's so just maybe you will grasp some clues:
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Yup. Look at the greek words and meaning. The hour/period of time of temptation He will watch over us and protect us as in preventing us from being tempted when the whole world is being tempted. That is the church that is like the church of Philadelphia. I can easily see this time as being now. When many churches are being tempted to follow the world and are succumbing to those temptations. But if you are as the Phili. church He will watch over us and guard us from such temptations/trials. The tribulation is something that happens to us and there is nothing to stop it, like saints being beheaded. That is happening now ( Isis ), earthquakes increasing, tornados increasing, hurricanes increasing, fires increasing, life on earth being destroyed increasingly and other increasing disasters. Nature against man, man against nature, man against man etc.
Yes there is a world wide hour/period of time of temptation/trial and the Great Tribulation like never seen before and never to be seen again. After all that ( 7seals ) comes the wrath of God. That we are not here for. You will notice that what Jesus says in matthew 24 matches the 7 seals.
Anyhow I'm out of here. The discussion is going in the same circles it always has and will continue to pop up on christian forms until the bulls come home for milking. Blessing to all and see you on another thread. BE READY is what the Lord says.
Yes there is a world wide hour/period of time of temptation/trial and the Great Tribulation like never seen before and never to be seen again. After all that ( 7seals ) comes the wrath of God. That we are not here for. You will notice that what Jesus says in matthew 24 matches the 7 seals.
Anyhow I'm out of here. The discussion is going in the same circles it always has and will continue to pop up on christian forms until the bulls come home for milking. Blessing to all and see you on another thread. BE READY is what the Lord says.
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I am truly sorry your limited attention span forces you in to your safe space when multiple passages from all over the Word of God simply confuse you but then again Peter touched on how the "unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction":
2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Yea it is a pretty silly notion that the Holy Spirit will not be on the earth during the tribulation because David clearly made it very obvious that the Holy Spirit of God is everywhere including the depths of hell::
Psalms 139:7-12 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? (8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (9) If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; (10) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. (11) If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. (12) Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psalms 139:7-12 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? (8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (9) If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; (10) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. (11) If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. (12) Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
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