Not By Works

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mailmandan

mailmandan

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BillG said:
Here we go

Vines Expository Dictionary (noeo.net)

The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thess. 2:11,12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Cor. 5:7.
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I see John 1:12 attached with "a personal surrender to Him" in Vine's definition. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. There is the personal surrender to Him. As I already explained in post #76,738, when we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance in Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him, resulting in justification. (Romans 5:1) That is the ROOT of salvation.

The FRUIT of salvation would be living by or out of faith, as we see 2 Corinthians 5:7 attached with "a conduct inspired by such surrender" in Vine's definition. So faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and "a conduct inspired by surrender" which FOLLOWS would be the FRUIT. Cause and Effect. Works-salvationists cross the line by defining works "as" faith and make no distinction between the root of salvation (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation and the fruit of salvation, which is our conduct which "follows" having been saved through faith in Christ, namely, good works. The end result is salvation by works.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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Suzy37 said:
You guys are just so wrapped up in your false gospel and triune god you are pitiful! you dont make sense, you dont know your Bible and constantly post scriptures that condemn yourself. You resort to ridicule because you cant think of anything else! usually a last resort!
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Oh the irony. :rolleyes: Well Suzy, since you accuse believers on CC of teaching a false gospel, why don't you explain to us what YOU believe the gospel IS and also what YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel. (Romans 1:16) :unsure:

In regards to the Triune God, there is one God in essence/nature yet three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. - https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/the-trinity/god-is-triune/
 
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Suzy37

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Nov 20, 2018
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EG
I have been thinking and if I have misunderstood you in any way I am sorry and I apologize ! As for what I believe I dont and will never belive in a pagan triune god.
I put up a post last night showing Christ was used in creating the universe, all there is The word God means gods and the word us was used, plural Gods, Father and Word but no Holy Spirit! they left him out!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#77,444
#77,444
Trinity in the OT

Is 48: 12 Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,

Jesus the redeemer, Sent By God (father) And his Spirit (HS)

The trinity is not Pagan. Pagans had human Gods who became divine, and had Gods over certain things (God of rain, of the water etc etc. The trinity is one God United in 3 distinct persons, all with the same goal.
 
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Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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Suzy37 said:
Maybe you can get rid of anyone who speaks the Truth, much easier on you!
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It's OK Suzy, Mainstream Preachers have been working to silence most of the Words of God since Abel was "silenced" by his "Christian" brother Cain.

"Many" are here to promote their religious franchise, not discuss the Word of God. They will not answer questions, discuss, explore anything that might bring the precious traditions of their religious franchise into question. In the old days they would just stone you as their fathers stoned Stephen, now they have the ignore button, but spiritually it's the same.

I have tried for a year to have Biblical discussions with many of them regarding the religious traditions of the land. But if you question their precious religious doctrines, or expose the Anti-Biblical position they take on many subjects, then the stoning begins.

It is an age old story that the Christ warned and gave examples of from the very beginning. It's actually part of the Holy struggle and you can take heart knowing they did the exact same thing to the prophets, and to Jesus when He came as a lamb for the slaughter.

If Jesus were to come on this forum and simply say the same things He said when He was a man, they would call Him a Pharisee, just as they do those who trust Him and His Word's over the religious doctrines of the religions of the land today. They would place Him on ignore after the very first day.

But there are folks who are interested in more than promoting man's religion on this forum. Actually there are several. They post scriptures, ask and answer questions, actually engage in Biblical discussions. They Acknowledge and trust the Deity of the Christ and His Words, both as the Word of God, and also as the Human Jesus. They, like you, have escaped much of the influence of religions which call Him Lord, Lord, but transgress His commandments by their own religious traditions. They contribute great insight, great perspective for edification.

Don't let the white washed walls deter you from seeking truth from the ONLY REAL Truth that exists, and that is Every Word of God.

You have a great day today Suzy37 :)
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Studyman said:
the ONLY REAL Truth that exists, and that is Every Word of God
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hmm 'every word' would include Matthew 17:24-27

what have you figured out so far ?

or are all your thoughts still only on 'religious traditions' and how much you hate them?

'you could try something new' and try thinking about Jesus instead :)
you could try, obeying His command: 'search the scriptures' believing that they testify of Him.
 
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Studyman

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eternally-gratefull said:
No. some one else said somethign about you and that they were ignoring you for a bunch of reasons and you were the only one doing it or something like that.

I told him he must have studyman on ignore. Because he fit everythign he said about you perfectly. And he confimred my suspicions.

I ignore arrogant people who attack and slander others and do not with to discuss the word. If that offends people. Thats too bad.
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Isn't that something. You have described yourself perfectly from my perspective. I just don't ignore you.

And how can you say I'm not here to discuss the Word when you are the one who refuses to answer the many questions I have asked?

Like "are these the Christ's sayings? "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

And, "Were the Jews trying to get the Galatians to Love God, and Love their neighbor"? or "were they trying to get the Galatians to come to the Levites to perform "Works of the Law" for the remission of sins?

Did Abraham have God's Laws?

Did God give Abraham the Levitical Priesthood for justification of sins? Or was this ADDED 430 years later?

Why are you so unwilling to answer these simple question? And why are you so angry for me asking them?
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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I have a feeling someone here is going to convince the false gospelizers of their works salvation error, that they are lost and incorrectly interpreting Scripture.

Wait, that feeling just left, never mind.

Carry on! :ROFL:
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Studyman said:
If Jesus were to come on this forum and simply say the same things He said when He was a man, they would call Him a Pharisee, just as they do those who trust Him and His Word's over the religious doctrines of the religions of the land today.
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don't kid yourself, buddy.
you'd likely slander Him, misrepresent all His statements & duck all His questions.

what if He came and gave you Matthew 17:24-27?
would you treat it like it's inconsequential or would you look at it like the very words of God and devote some time to figuring out the width and breadth of what it reveals about Him & His work?
would you accuse Him of avoiding your 'tough questions' because He answered them with a parable?
would you give His parable a thought at all, or dismiss it as drivel because you didn't immediately comprehend?
would you pretend He never said it.

'studyman' please 'study' this passage :)
you'll like it, it has 'human tradition' in it haha - the tax, was that of God or of man?
it has the gospel in it. what do you see?
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

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posthuman said:
don't kid yourself, buddy.
you'd likely slander Him, misrepresent all His statements & duck all His questions.

what if He came and gave you Matthew 17:24-27?
would you treat it like it's inconsequential or would you look at it like the very words of God and devote some time to figuring out the width and breadth of what it reveals about Him & His work?
would you accuse Him of avoiding your 'tough questions' because He answered them with a parable?
would you give His parable a thought at all, or dismiss it as drivel because you didn't immediately comprehend?
would you pretend He never said it.

'studyman' please 'study' this passage :)
you'll like it, it has 'human tradition' in it haha - the tax, was that of God or of man?
it has the gospel in it. what do you see?
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I get the feeling "study"man thinks Jesus would pat him on the back...
 
posthuman

posthuman

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preacher4truth said:
I get the feeling "study"man thinks Jesus would pat him on the back...
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maybe we all think the same.

that idea he raised, how would we react if Jesus was posting on the forum, is an excellent one, and a convicting one.

i mean, i think he probably asked it with a vain pretext (('thank God I am not like other men')) -- but are we going to be just as vain about that hypothetical?

i'd might skip His threads. i might look at them trying to find something wrong so i could say 'aha!' - to trap Him in His words.
i might read His posts and think 'eh this guy's got room to grow' and try to clue Him in.
i might think the same and not bother to even reach out.
i might think He's nuts and sidetrack His conversation with something inane. i might think 'this is boring, it's stuff we all know' and not take any of it to heart, skimming through and moving on to the next topic.

i might think i've already got it all worked out, that He has nothing to add to me, and presume the attitude that i should be the one teaching Him.
 
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Studyman

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posthuman said:
hmm 'every word' would include Matthew 17:24-27

what have you figured out so far ?

or are all your thoughts still only on 'religious traditions' and how much you hate them?

'you could try something new' and try thinking about Jesus instead :)
you could try, obeying His command: 'search the scriptures' believing that they testify of Him.
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It is because I have searched the "scriptures" that I don't believe in your religion. Post.

You believe Jesus came to "Remove" God's instructions that you preach "are against us". Jesus said He didn't come to "Remove" them. And He said God's instructions are "for man" not against man. But you teach they are "against " man and were nailed to the cross.

You believe the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God.

Jesus said they were not "TRYING" to obey God.

This is just two of several things you believe and preach that the scriptures do not support. You know what the Christ says, but you choose to "believe" something else, "another Voice".

Why can you not be persuaded to believe in ALL the Word's of the Christ over your own thoughts or religious doctrines? Since I "believe" ALL of Christ's Words, I rely on Him to answer.

Luke 16:
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So you will not be persuaded by the Word's of Jesus is you don't believe the Law and Prophets. Not my word's but my Lord's.

But that doesn't negate the fact that you "Believe" what you believe. Men "Believe" things that are just not true. It happens all the time and Jesus warns about it over and over. If you can repent, and come to terms with who the Pharisees were, and if you can come to terms with what Jesus said about the Law and the Prophets, then maybe we can move forward.

Until then you are just building doctrines on top of falsehoods and they will not stand, at least according to the Christ.

Matt. 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, (While staring at the Lake of Fire) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, (Word of God which became Flesh) and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. (And that Rock is Christ)

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, (Law and Prophets) and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So instead of you defending religious doctrines that the Christ doesn't confirm, why don't we let the Scriptures, "ALL of them" create our doctrines. And if it turns out that the Word of God teaches differently than our religious traditions, so be it. We will just "Come out of" the religious franchises which teach them.

But if all you are going to do is continue to defend your religion and only use scriptures which can be used to promote "your religion" then I have already been there with you, and I'm just not interested.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Studyman said:
It is because I have searched the "scriptures" that I don't believe in your religion. Post.

You believe Jesus came to "Remove" God's instructions that you preach "are against us". Jesus said He didn't come to "Remove" them. And He said God's instructions are "for man" not against man. But you teach they are "against " man and were nailed to the cross.

You believe the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God.

Jesus said they were not "TRYING" to obey God.

This is just two of several things you believe and preach that the scriptures do not support. You know what the Christ says, but you choose to "believe" something else, "another Voice".

Why can you not be persuaded to believe in ALL the Word's of the Christ over your own thoughts or religious doctrines? Since I "believe" ALL of Christ's Words, I rely on Him to answer.

Luke 16:
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So you will not be persuaded by the Word's of Jesus is you don't believe the Law and Prophets. Not my word's but my Lord's.

But that doesn't negate the fact that you "Believe" what you believe. Men "Believe" things that are just not true. It happens all the time and Jesus warns about it over and over. If you can repent, and come to terms with who the Pharisees were, and if you can come to terms with what Jesus said about the Law and the Prophets, then maybe we can move forward.

Until then you are just building doctrines on top of falsehoods and they will not stand, at least according to the Christ.

Matt. 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, (While staring at the Lake of Fire) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, (Word of God which became Flesh) and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. (And that Rock is Christ)

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, (Law and Prophets) and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So instead of you defending religious doctrines that the Christ doesn't confirm, why don't we let the Scriptures, "ALL of them" create our doctrines. And if it turns out that the Word of God teaches differently than our religious traditions, so be it. We will just "Come out of" the religious franchises which teach them.

But if all you are going to do is continue to defend your religion and only use scriptures which can be used to promote "your religion" then I have already been there with you, and I'm just not interested.
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here you go bearing false witness against me again.


you are supposed to be finding the gospel in Matthew 17:24-27
 
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Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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posthuman said:
don't kid yourself, buddy.
you'd likely slander Him, misrepresent all His statements & duck all His questions.

what if He came and gave you Matthew 17:24-27?
would you treat it like it's inconsequential or would you look at it like the very words of God and devote some time to figuring out the width and breadth of what it reveals about Him & His work?
would you accuse Him of avoiding your 'tough questions' because He answered them with a parable?
would you give His parable a thought at all, or dismiss it as drivel because you didn't immediately comprehend?
would you pretend He never said it.

'studyman' please 'study' this passage :)
you'll like it, it has 'human tradition' in it haha - the tax, was that of God or of man?
it has the gospel in it. what do you see?
Click to expand...
I think I've already slandered Him when I belonged to a religion that created images of Him, in the likeness of some playgirl centerfold, naked, bleeding, placed the Christ's name on this image and plastered it in every church on the planet when the Christ, in His Very First Commandment forbids His People to partake in such wickedness. At the time my conscience was seared with a hot iron and it didn't even bother me. But now, after escaping the religious franchises of the land, I can't believe I hated Him so much. I was deceived into believing my hate was Love. That Holy was unholy, that unclean was clean.

I think I already slandered Him when I choose a religion which rejected Him and mocked His Salvation plan which began with Passover, choosing instead to pick a Pagan worship day and place His Name on it, and call it His birthday, thus making it the greatest "Christian" High Day on the entire planet while relegating the Christ's Feasts to be flushed down their religious toilet. I was deceived into believing Christ's Feasts were not Holy, but men's religious doctrines and traditions were Holy. As the Christ inspired it to be written:

Is. 5:
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Today I slander Him when I let the whited walls get under my skin. When I forget that offences "Must happen". When I forget it is Him who opens the eyes of men, not me. I slander Him when I forget I too hated Him, and taught against Him, and lied about Him before He opened my eyes, which is His grace and mercy that I don't deserve.

But it is what it is:

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (Lawlessness)

And so I strive to enter the gate to the Path the Christ walked as He instructed. Paul's word's explain my plight perfectly.

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Have Mercy on me, my Lord.

10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
 
P

Pisteuo

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#77,456
dcontroversal said:
Hahahaj


Hahaha hilarious....more ignorance on your part....

He begins it, he finishes it and he completes it...it is his WORK and we enter INTO HIS REST and cease from our own labor....and I fully expect you in complete ignorance to reject these truths in favor of your twisted Cainologist drivel.....!
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Your getting away with alot of name calling . Is that what passes for theology on this forum ?

Your only describing " Grace " . He paid the price for everyone ever born into this world . But the world isn't going to receive that Grace without Faith , without faithing , without pisteuo , without personally surrendering thier lives to Him and living a life inspired by such surrender .

Nobody recieves the Spirit of Christ by only" believing " in what He did and said . The object of Faith and faithing has to be Christ HIMSELF , the real living person !

try and keep your tongue under control .
 
BillG

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Studyman said:
Then why did you say "Jesus would say" obedience to God has no bearing on Salvation when you and "many" who come in Christ's name teach that true faith is supposed to result in obedience to God? If it has no bearing, then why is it to bring the obedient fruits?
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Ok let's see if I can bring some clarity here.

I responded to the following question

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
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To which I answered "Jesus would" and I posted

Matthew 7:21-23

I Never Knew You
(Luke 6:46; 13:26, 27)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So here we see people calling Jesus Lord and saying we have done this and done that.
They claim great things but he says "Depart from me I never knew you"

To not know is to not have a relationship.
Does Jesus want our works or relationship?
Does he want relationship that leads to works out of love?

Jesus himself said "If you love me you will obey my commands"
What is the will of the Father?
To believe in Jesus.

So what I was trying to convey is that Jesus saw through the reasons of those who claimed obedience and will say "I never knew you, depart from me"

7:23: I never knew you: These people were never converted, even though they did great things in God’s name. They break God’s laws through rejection of the Father’s will as taught by Jesus. Having never known Christ, they never learned to do what he commanded. (Bible study notes)

Listen, I have no issues that obedience follows genuine faith.
It's my prayer for myself every day, and I'm sure it's the same for everyone on this thread. Some bear more fruit than others, so grow quicker than others. Let's not forget that.

After all that's what wants us to be.
But based on love and not be saved.

Love God, love your neighbours, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you.

For God so loved the world.
Did Jesus saves us because he had to or out of love?
So yes obedience, works, will follow but not to saved but because we love Jesus.

James 1:22-27
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Our works we do were set for us before we came to faith.
And in faith on Jesus and in Jesus we will walk the walk.
Not talk the talk but be doers.

I hope this clarifies what I was trying to convey.
 
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Studyman

Senior Member
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Oct 11, 2017
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posthuman said:
here you go bearing false witness against me again.


you are supposed to be finding the gospel in Matthew 17:24-27
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Not much future is debating with a man that says something, then later denies that he said it.

I think you are ignoring some undeniable Biblical Facts.

#1. Not Everyone who claims to be God's "Children" are God's Children.

#2. Not Everyone who claims God's Grace, have received God's Grace.

#3. Not everyone who calls the Christ Lord, Lord will be "saved" in "That Day".

But there are other truths that also should be understood;

Everyone who claims to be God's Children, "believe" they are.

Everyone who claims God's Mercy, "believe" that have it.

Everyone who Calls the Christ Lord, Lord "believes" they will be saved in "that Day".

Instead of taking one verse in the entire Bible (Matt. 17: 24-27) and trying to use it to somehow alter or amend the Bible in such a way as to negate these Biblical and spiritual truths. Why don't we rid our mind of the influence of so many religions, and just let God's word's define our doctrines?

Isn't that what the Christ did when He became a man? Didn't He trust in the Word of God over the centuries old religious "burdens" and traditions of the Mainstream Preachers of His day?
 
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