Not By Works

mailmandan · Nov 28, 2018

Are you saying that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works? Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. A living tree and not a dead tree produces fruit, just as a living faith, not a dead faith produces works.

*James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he demonstrates that he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14-20)

*James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

eternally-gratefull · Nov 28, 2018

Suzy37 said:

No, Because I will not recieve a spiritual body until I am glorified, or ressurected by Christ. We are not promised a new body in this lifetime. What Happens is when I am born again, My spirit within me is made alive. That is how I am able to understand scripture. Because my dead spirit has been regenerated. The barrier between myself and God has been removed, As paul said, everything which was contrary to me was removed, having been nailed to the cross.

I am in the world now. In eternity, I will not be in the world. Thus, I will not have a world to overcome. I am sorry sis, but this makes no sense.

John 5 says the one who overcomes the world (aorist tense, It is ongoing and will continue but it started in the past) is those who have faith. Whoever believes Jesus is the Son of God has overcome (present tense) the world. There is no future tense in the passage..

I am not sure where you are getting this. May I ask where this belief came from? I have never heard it before.

Eph 2 said I was dead, but have now been made alive, I do not have to wait until the ressurection. I am alive now. That is being born again

Eph 2: 5 Says we all were dead, but we (those who are saved) have been made alive through Christ. That is born again

Col 2 said I was dead, but I have been made alive haviing been forgven all sin (justification causes new birth)

1 Peter 3: 18 says My flesh has been put to death, and my spirit has been made alive (not will be) this is born again.

1 Peter 1 says I have already been born again, Not of corruptable seed. But incorruptable, by the word of God which abides forever.

Titus 3 says I was not saved by works, but by Gods mercy through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the spirit (this is born again)

All these passages say I am alive right now. Having been born again, or made alive, in Christ. The kingdom of God is here and now. You want to overcome the world system, Be born of God..

God birthed me and made me alive in him 36 years ago.[/QUOTE]

eternally-gratefull · Nov 28, 2018

Pisteuo said:

Can you show us where this is? Not just your typed words. But the actual document? A link to the page where it says this?

People have proven this wrong by posting every vines commentary or dictionary we could find and it des not say this..

So here is your chance, Show us the proof. Or consider yourself non reliable and untrustworthy, and you can join a few of your buddies.

Argueless · Nov 28, 2018

...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26

...teaching them to OBEY WHATEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU… Matthew 28:18-20

...And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and TO LOVE one another as he commanded us.1 John 3:23

...And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2 John 1:6

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM, but also to suffer for him, Philippians 1:29

Does a person who teaches obedience to God causes another person to sin by doing so?

Would any person who don't have FAITH in God teach obedience to God? Or would the deceiver be TEACHING obedience to God as a deception? Would he not rather teach DISOBEDIENCE in His attempt to deceive the believers?

Is it not those who condemn those who teach obedience to God who DOES NOT HAVE FAITH in God and CAUSES A PERSON TO SIN?

Is it not that sin is the transgression of the law?(1 john 3:4)

Is it obedience to God to break the law?

Who then causes another person to sin?

...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6 But IF ANYONE CAUSES ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES WHO “BELIEVE” IN ME TO SIN, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but WOE TO THE MAN THROUGH WHOM THEY COME FROM! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be THROWN INTO ETERNAL FIRE. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be THROWN INTO THE FIRE OF HELL. matthew 18:1-9

...Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT. ephesians 5:6

eternally-gratefull · Nov 28, 2018

Suzy37 said:

I try to keep them short. I try usually to highlight scripture by italics. And bold any word or words I am trying to emphasize.

That is not frowned upon..

eternally-gratefull · Nov 28, 2018

Pisteuo said:

Pisteuo , the verb form of the noun Faith , is action , based upon a belief , sustained by confidence .

We perform 100 's of acts of faithing or pisteuo every day that have nothing to do with our relationship with Christ . What is the specific act of pisteuo in relation to the living God ? " A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender ."

Anyone who thinks this can be done without work or effort , had no chance to have that personal relationship with Christ .

The Greek did not allow work or effort to be separated from pisteuo or the application of Faith .

Again, resource? Not what some ultra liberal professor told you. Resource

Or are you just a listener of men?

dcontroversal · Nov 28, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Faithing <----made up word and premise..........no such thing.........my bible tells me exactly what faith is and isn't..........and the version peddled behind the bolded word in this post.....is not it.....!

dcontroversal · Nov 28, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

No, Because I will not recieve a spiritual body until I am glorified, or ressurected by Christ. We are not promised a new body in this lifetime. What Happens is when I am born again, My spirit within me is made alive. That is how I am able to understand scripture. Because my dead spirit has been regenerated. The barrier between myself and God has been removed, As paul said, everything which was contrary to me was removed, having been nailed to the cross.

I am in the world now. In eternity, I will not be in the world. Thus, I will not have a world to overcome. I am sorry sis, but this makes no sense.

John 5 says the one who overcomes the world (aorist tense, It is ongoing and will continue but it started in the past) is those who have faith. Whoever believes Jesus is the Son of God has overcome (present tense) the world. There is no future tense in the passage..

I am not sure where you are getting this. May I ask where this belief came from? I have never heard it before.

Eph 2 said I was dead, but have now been made alive, I do not have to wait until the ressurection. I am alive now. That is being born again

Eph 2: 5 Says we all were dead, but we (those who are saved) have been made alive through Christ. That is born again

Col 2 said I was dead, but I have been made alive haviing been forgven all sin (justification causes new birth)

1 Peter 3: 18 says My flesh has been put to death, and my spirit has been made alive (not will be) this is born again.

1 Peter 1 says I have already been born again, Not of corruptable seed. But incorruptable, by the word of God which abides forever.

Titus 3 says I was not saved by works, but by Gods mercy through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the spirit (this is born again)

All these passages say I am alive right now. Having been born again, or made alive, in Christ. The kingdom of God is here and now. You want to overcome the world system, Be born of God..

God birthed me and made me alive in him 36 years ago.

[/QUOTE]

How does one deal with such drivel as---> IF you have a spirit body then fly over here and I will blah blah blah..........P.T. Barnum"ism" wow.........

eternally-gratefull · Nov 28, 2018

dcontroversal said:

These people are going to have to answer to God some day. I wonder if they realise this?

dcontroversal · Nov 28, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

It is highly suspect that they understand the level of scrutiny they will face by God for changing words, making up religions and leading people in the way of error...........

preacher4truth · Nov 28, 2018

Pisteuo said:

How many times have you been asked to document your above? You know it's not there yet you keep peddling your error. It's OCD man!

Yes, a light is going off, like this huge red siren showing some of us your heresy. Nothing corroborates with your story, not church history, not Scripture, nada!

#faithingheresy brought to you by Pisteuo!

Studyman · Nov 28, 2018

star said:

I agree with what Jesus said about giving the Spirit of Truth to men "IF" we Love Him and Keep his Commandments as it is written. But your preaching that our "only part" in our own salvation is to accept that free gift of immortality, that is not what the Christ of the Bible teaches.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees,(Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time) ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What was wrong with the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time? Let Jesus Himself answer this question.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

How can we "DO" the same things and not receive the same judgment?

Luke 6:
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

How is it so "MANY" people call Him Lord, Lord, yet the Holy Spirit you speak of doesn't lead them to "DO" as the Christ says?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

How is it you, and most every Mainstream Preacher on the planet, preach all we have to do is "accept the free gift" when the Word of God says:

Matt. 7: 21, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

How is it Mainstream religions of the land preach all we do is "accept" the free gift when Jesus, the Word of God which became Flesh, the Christ who created all things, says we must "DO" something first.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

2 Tim. 2:
15 Study ( something we "DO") to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, ( you are already saved, already immortal) and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (Lawlessless, something we "DO")

I agree that we work together with God.

1 Cor. 3:
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers (Doers, not just hearers) together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

You religious preaching: "Your only part in salvation is to accept that free gift" sounds easy, and smooth, and the masses surely do flock to this path. But I can quote the Christ for pages, both as the Word of God and as the Man Jesus, which tell us to "Deny ourself", He doesn't "DO" that for us. To "Keep His Commandments", He doesn't "DO" that for us. To "DO" the Will of the God of Abraham. He doesn't "DO" that for us.

If His Word didn't warn about how satan deceives the world through religions which call Him Lord, Lord, it might not be such a big deal.

But here you are preaching things, in the name of God, that are opposite of what the Christ Himself taught. Shouldn't a man seeking the Truth consider these things?

Are we not to "take heed" of the teaching of religious man and "Live by" Every Word of God?

Or do we reject His Word once we "Accept" His Free gift.

dcontroversal · Nov 28, 2018

preacher4truth said:

DA plane, Da plane........Berthing is a word, farthing is a word, soothing is a word, teething is a word........faithing is not a word, nor a biblical truth...........

BillG · Nov 28, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Yes they do realise and already know what they are going to say.

"Ooh wasn't I good, look at all these good works I did"

That's also what a lot of my non Christian friends do when I ask them what they will say when they meet God.

preacher4truth · Nov 28, 2018

dcontroversal said:

I recall when he first joined. His technique was typical protocol to lead others into error. He started off with certain statements and one HAD to agree with him before he'd move on to his next fallacy. At the end of that journey is a pit.

It is remarkable just how many of these there are online, they seek out forums to deceive.

cv5 · Nov 28, 2018

Studyman said:

I agree with what Jesus said about giving the Spirit of Truth to men "IF" we Love Him and Keep his Commandments as it is written. But your preaching that our "only part" in our own salvation is to accept that free gift of immortality, that is not what the Christ of the Bible teaches.

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees,(Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time) ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What was wrong with the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time? Let Jesus Himself answer this question.

Matt. 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

How can we "DO" the same things and not receive the same judgment?

Luke 6:
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

How is it so "MANY" people call Him Lord, Lord, yet the Holy Spirit you speak of doesn't lead them to "DO" as the Christ says?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

How is it you, and most every Mainstream Preacher on the planet, preach all we have to do is "accept the free gift" when the Word of God says:

Matt. 7: 21, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

How is it Mainstream religions of the land preach all we do is "accept" the free gift when Jesus, the Word of God which became Flesh, the Christ who created all things, says we must "DO" something first.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

2 Tim. 2:
15 Study ( something we "DO") to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, ( you are already saved, already immortal) and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (Lawlessless, something we "DO")

I agree that we work together with God.

1 Cor. 3:
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers (Doers, not just hearers) together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

You religious preaching: "Your only part in salvation is to accept that free gift" sounds easy, and smooth, and the masses surely do flock to this path. But I can quote the Christ for pages, both as the Word of God and as the Man Jesus, which tell us to "Deny ourself", He doesn't "DO" that for us. To "Keep His Commandments", He doesn't "DO" that for us. To "DO" the Will of the God of Abraham. He doesn't "DO" that for us.

If His Word didn't warn about how satan deceives the world through religions which call Him Lord, Lord, it might not be such a big deal.

But here you are preaching things, in the name of God, that are opposite of what the Christ Himself taught. Shouldn't a man seeking the Truth consider these things?

Are we not to "take heed" of the teaching of religious man and "Live by" Every Word of God?

Or do we reject His Word once we "Accept" His Free gift.

You have a serious works-righteousness problem.

BTW the correct verse verbatim is:

John 8:31
31So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

The point? Once free always free. A one time event, and forevermore.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 28, 2018

BillG said:

Jesus forsaw this, And wha did he say his answer will be? Depart from me, for I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Studyman · Nov 28, 2018

TruthTalk said:

This is truly fascinating.

Paul, who obeyed the Christ's Sabbaths, and Holy days, who "believed all things" written in the Law and Prophets which he called the Gospel of Christ, was called a heretic by the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time.

They too, taught that only by following their tradition soaked religion could one enter the Kingdom and that those who "Strived to Enter" through the same Path that Jesus walked were heretics.

The seemingly undeniable fact that you are not capable of even seeing this point, much less even willing to discuss it, choosing instead to defend your religion, is proof positive that my Lord and Savior is truly King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Matt. 13:
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

And again:

Luke 16:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD (The Word of God which became Flesh in the person of Jesus), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, (That the Christ before ordained that we should walk in them) where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

As it is to this day!!!!

posthuman · Nov 28, 2018

Studyman said:

thank God you aren't like those other men, huh?

eternally-gratefull · Nov 28, 2018

posthuman said:

What will it take to get them to fall on their knees in true repentance?

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