Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine
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D, I don't expect you to embrace what I espouse. You've read the bible, you know it well and it'll be the Holy Spirit that speaks to you, not me. I write for those reading along. You keep telling me I'm not correct...I've posted what those that came immediately after Jesus believed and taught but you won't accept it because it's not inspired. What makes you think anyone teaching today is inspired?
You accept the bible, don't you? Those you refuse to believe are the same persons who put the bible together! If God gave them enough inspiration to get the pages of the gospels and letters together, why would He not have given the early teachers this same inspiration?
I'd like to discuss 2 Timothy but you put so much out there I don't know if I have time to handle it all. You ARE prolific! Let's discuss 2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
There are so many IF's in the N.T.
These are verses that are used by those of us who believe in conditional security.
Conditional on what?
Faith in God.
Belief and faith in Jesus (same thing. but as a sacrifice for our sinful nature)
Obedience to God's commands
Enduring till the end (of our life)
Verse 12 says that if we deny HIM, He also will deny US.
Verse 13 says that even if we're faithless, HE will remain faithful because He cannot deny Himself.
It's a contradiction!
12 says He WILL deny us.
13 says He will REMAIN FAITHFUL.
What is your explanation of this?
Here's mine:
verse 12
IF we deny God (deny as in believing in Him- not what Peter did) He will also deny us.
Jesus said in Mathew 10:33 that whoever denies Him, He will also deny to His Father in heaven.
So we could be SURE that Jesus will deny us IF we deny Him.
verse 13
Even if we're faithless ....even if we lose faith in God...
HE will REMAIN faithful (to Himself) because He cannot deny Himself.
God will always be faithful to Himself because He cannot lie...He MUST remain faithful to Himself.
Faithful to what?
Faithful to His word.
What's His word? All that He has said in both the O.T. and the N.T.
He promises to reward the faithful and obedient and condemn the lawless and unbelievers.
God will remain faithful to Himself, to His words and His promises, not only the nice promises which you love to dwell upon, but also those that are hard to take.
Faithful to His character and nature.
God IS morality, God IS justice.
He's a loving God ready to forgive anything,,,but He also promises justice and justice is based on morality .... His and ours. It's not good to say that one will be saved no matter what happens after he walks down that isle and promises to love, honor and obey God. What if that person stops doing what he promised? He may not be very just, but God is. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness --- He will not accept darkness - this would go against His nature.
God will REMAIN FAITHFUL to HIMSELF (not to us except in a non-direct way).. to His word and to His character and nature. Someone that denies God and acts unfaithfully toward Him, for example disobeying Him as a practice, will not be accepted by God because God cannot deny HIMSELF.
Please reply to this.
Just this please. (can't handle more...for now)
You accept the bible, don't you? Those you refuse to believe are the same persons who put the bible together! If God gave them enough inspiration to get the pages of the gospels and letters together, why would He not have given the early teachers this same inspiration?
I'd like to discuss 2 Timothy but you put so much out there I don't know if I have time to handle it all. You ARE prolific! Let's discuss 2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
There are so many IF's in the N.T.
These are verses that are used by those of us who believe in conditional security.
Conditional on what?
Faith in God.
Belief and faith in Jesus (same thing. but as a sacrifice for our sinful nature)
Obedience to God's commands
Enduring till the end (of our life)
Verse 12 says that if we deny HIM, He also will deny US.
Verse 13 says that even if we're faithless, HE will remain faithful because He cannot deny Himself.
It's a contradiction!
12 says He WILL deny us.
13 says He will REMAIN FAITHFUL.
What is your explanation of this?
Here's mine:
verse 12
IF we deny God (deny as in believing in Him- not what Peter did) He will also deny us.
Jesus said in Mathew 10:33 that whoever denies Him, He will also deny to His Father in heaven.
So we could be SURE that Jesus will deny us IF we deny Him.
verse 13
Even if we're faithless ....even if we lose faith in God...
HE will REMAIN faithful (to Himself) because He cannot deny Himself.
God will always be faithful to Himself because He cannot lie...He MUST remain faithful to Himself.
Faithful to what?
Faithful to His word.
What's His word? All that He has said in both the O.T. and the N.T.
He promises to reward the faithful and obedient and condemn the lawless and unbelievers.
God will remain faithful to Himself, to His words and His promises, not only the nice promises which you love to dwell upon, but also those that are hard to take.
Faithful to His character and nature.
God IS morality, God IS justice.
He's a loving God ready to forgive anything,,,but He also promises justice and justice is based on morality .... His and ours. It's not good to say that one will be saved no matter what happens after he walks down that isle and promises to love, honor and obey God. What if that person stops doing what he promised? He may not be very just, but God is. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness --- He will not accept darkness - this would go against His nature.
God will REMAIN FAITHFUL to HIMSELF (not to us except in a non-direct way).. to His word and to His character and nature. Someone that denies God and acts unfaithfully toward Him, for example disobeying Him as a practice, will not be accepted by God because God cannot deny HIMSELF.
Please reply to this.
Just this please. (can't handle more...for now)
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He did claim those in the O.T. were not saved until Christ's shed BLOOD:
But if he did mention saved by faith, I missed it.
What I do remember, I claimed the O.T. peeps were saved and a few jumped claiming no. It was not until FAITH was clarified that suddenly everyone is on the same team. All I did was claim they were saved and was told NO. Moment FAITH is brought into the conversation and suddenly everyone agree's they were also saved. It's like a mouse in a maze here finding common ground. But it does seem once we do find that common ground, it's rather obvious we all generally have similar beliefs. Must be the wording or how questions are asked that makes people think other views are opposing. Learning experience I guess!!
hahahaha ok,
I am being bombarded by many claiming OSAS and the general opinion is similar with a few exceptions. One being, we can currently sin without seeking forgiveness of it. Most of the OSAS are claiming 1 John, 2 John, and Hebrews as their go to scripture source. And then I pay attention to who the OSASers are giving the thumbs up or winner emblem to. So, it's not like anyone has to be a genius after awhile to figure out the general OSAS platform and opinion!!
You don't need to be forgiven my brother in Christ, because you never offended me nor done me wrong!!
I was just claiming I believed they were saved. Obviously I know the LAW nor GRACE actually saves us. But how we are saved in today's time, makes only perfect sense those 4 to 5 thousand years ago would also be saved by the same way. And I believe this due to another answer I provided you (God is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever). So, If yesterday God required FAITH to be saved, and we know today God requires FAITH to be saved, makes perfect sense that in the future God will require FAITH to be saved. So ALL in ALL, it's obvious FAITH in God is what has always saved us from Adam till now.
Again, no one looked forward to the cross. They believed in what God had said at the time and then obeyed Him in what He said. Do you really believe they put their trust in the cross of Jesus before it happened? You say they put their faith in God? For what? Isn't the gospel we trust in for salvation the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
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