Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[GodsGrace101]

I agree with you EG.
I do have a problem with those that say that one absolutely cannot leave the faith...I'm sure we all know someone that has. I don't say this is an easy thing to do once someone has known the love of God.

Some in churches are not saved.
But also, some that ARE saved CAN leave the faith.
I don't understand why this is so difficult to accept.
I certainly don't plan to ever leave God and I'm sure you don't.

1 Timothy 4:13 Paul clearly states that some will abandon the faith.
(BTW, you didn't reply to those Mathew verses but only said they do not pertain to loss of salvation)

What do you make of this video?
(if I can find it)

EG, you never replied to this video.
Does it sound to you like this guy was never saved???

He LOST his faith in Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are saved by putting our trust in the gospel of Jesus Christ, His shed blood. 1 Cor. 15:1-4. None of those OT saints were "saved" by trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. It's not there. Not even Peter or Jesus' disciples knew about the cross. It was a hidden mystery until revealed after the resurrection. Then, Christ could set those captives free. Sleeping in Abraham's bosom is not salvation.

We are saved by having faiht in God Period.

Just like they were.

Why do you insist anyone could EARN their salvation by works? Why would God make it harder for them to be saved, making them earn it And us just by grace.

That does not say much about the fairness and full love of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, you never replied to this video.
Does it sound to you like this guy was never saved???

He LOST his faith in Jesus.

It does not matter what it sounds like. The video will not change what John said,

If he denys christ (in his heart) he is lost and he or she was never saved, period.. I will not go against the word of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But that was never my intention or point as you continue to assume.

I only mentioned LAW and GRACE, for the purpose that under both dispensations, FAITH is what actually saved us.

Funny how DC believed this fact. Yet you have been attacking him all day.

Why are you attacking it, if you beieve it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I completely agree that these men were indeed saved by their FAITH in our God!!
However, the OSAS people think semantics is a must and they were not saved until Christ died for ALL SINS.
But I am in agreeance with your assessment of them being saved by their FAITH!!

I think they were saved the moment they trusted Christ.

Please stop trying to talk for me, You have proven you have no idea what I (we) Believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are the one who jumped me for claiming these men in the O.T. were saved. I never said the LAW saved them. I just claimed they were saved. And obviously, by their faith in God, they were saved!!

The LAW was never for us Gentiles to begin with, it's strictly between God and His CHOSEN PEOPLE during that time.

So, the men/women we read about from Moses to the prophets who were obviously under the LAW. We see God with them and God use them mightily . Are you suggesting that if there was never was a Messiah who died on a cross, those great men/women throughout the Old Testament were not going to heaven?

They clearly were saved!!

If I misunderstood you. forgive me, But you made this comment. Every person I have ever heard make this argument believes they were saved by law. Nothing in this statment would lead me to believe you thought they were saved by faith.

 

[GodsGrace101]

See....the simplicity of Christ alludes all that tie faith and works together for or to keep salvation<---false gospel

Why not use some good ole common sense Fran.........

Where I am going you cannot come <---Who said this, to whom was it spoken and why? <---because they DENIED HIM<->HIS message, HIS mission, HIS purpose and for sure his FAITH.......

Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." ..................And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

ALL who deny Christ will be DENIED by him before the FATHER...it is not about a saved man losing salvation and there is a general expectation and the word of God is for the saved and at the same time is filled with generalized statements of truth for the LOST

REGARDLESS.....YOU are pitting the bible against the bible.....LET"S logically deduce an absolute fact.......

LOGICALLY.....lets do some math

#1. The bible uses the following terms to describe salvation or the life given-->By grace through faith, eternal, everlasting, to the uttermost, kept by the power of God, lose nothing, finish what he began, sealed, Father's hand, Son's hand, may know we have, freely given, GRACE OR WORKS not BOTH, not by works of righteousness which we have done, not of works lest any man should boast and on and on.

#2. God the God of wording....he is PRECISE in what he states, EVERY WORD is inspired in CONTEXT, HE uses PRECISE statements of fact, words, verb tense, inspired two of the most precise LANGUAGES to give it in.....etc........

#3. BASED upon #'s 1 and 2, TO say the bible teaches a losable, salvation based upon WORKS not only pits the bible against itself, but also deems the whole thing untrustworthy......AT THE END of the day there is but 1 gospel that has power to save a man ALL other gospels have NO POWER and lead to a very, very bad day.

#4. Fran, you can peddle a salvation that can be kept or lost ALL day long based upon works which, you obviously do, and I can point to numerous facts that YOU MUST chunk to believe and or teach what you teach.

a. You must deny that you teach the same exact thing the plenteous in number embraced and pushed. The believed they knew JESUS as LORD and they fully expected and believed that their WORKS in some form or fashion helped the odds, chances and or was the ticket itself to get into the kingdom. Their gospel can be boiled down to a belief in JESUS (LORD, LORD) and their works were part of the equation. <---THE EXACT THING that ALL workers for BELIEVE....THEY call JESUS LORD (religiously) and they BELIEVE their WORKS in the NAME of JESUS was/is the winning ticket.

b. You must deny the truthful application of the words, phrases, statements in #1 above in order to embrace and teach a works based, self kept, blended gospel that includes a losable salvation. This alone pits the bible against the bible in the very minimum as they both cannot be right....deductive reason would dictate that GOD would not use the words, phrase, statements in #1 if salvation was losable and or gained, maintained by works.

c. You must deny that every attempt by man dia works to cover their own shame or sin was rejected by God.....such as, Adam and EVE (fig leaves), CAIN (works of his hands), Pharisees (Belief and Works) etc......WHO KILLED the ANIMALS, SHED BLOOD, MADE THE COVERINGS and COVERED in the Garden to cover their SHAME and SIN.....what Part did ADAM or EVE have in that other than being taken and COVERED BY GOD!

d. YOU must deny, twist, change, embellish, or go outside the context to get the bible to teach a works based salvation that can be lost or kept by performance/works.....

e. YOU must deny the fact that the saved will have both good and bad works, some will have works that get torched which proves they were not biblical and yet they remain SAVED.....and or that even MEN after the hearts and mind of GOD can and do horrific things that equate to pure evil and yet they speak of and spoke of their salvation in a present tense and instead of losing that which was not losable they were instead CHASTENED to the "tenth" degree.

I could carry this on for hours.......Fran....I am sorry....I will NEVER embrace what you espouse......it is not correct......

D, I don't expect you to embrace what I espouse. You've read the bible, you know it well and it'll be the Holy Spirit that speaks to you, not me. I write for those reading along. You keep telling me I'm not correct...I've posted what those that came immediately after Jesus believed and taught but you won't accept it because it's not inspired. What makes you think anyone teaching today is inspired?

You accept the bible, don't you? Those you refuse to believe are the same persons who put the bible together! If God gave them enough inspiration to get the pages of the gospels and letters together, why would He not have given the early teachers this same inspiration?

I'd like to discuss 2 Timothy but you put so much out there I don't know if I have time to handle it all. You ARE prolific! Let's discuss 2 Timothy 2:12-13

12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

There are so many IF's in the N.T.
These are verses that are used by those of us who believe in conditional security.
Conditional on what?
Faith in God.
Belief and faith in Jesus (same thing. but as a sacrifice for our sinful nature)
Obedience to God's commands
Enduring till the end (of our life)

Verse 12 says that if we deny HIM, He also will deny US.

Verse 13 says that even if we're faithless, HE will remain faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

It's a contradiction!
12 says He WILL deny us.
13 says He will REMAIN FAITHFUL.

What is your explanation of this?

Here's mine:

verse 12
IF we deny God (deny as in believing in Him- not what Peter did) He will also deny us.
Jesus said in Mathew 10:33 that whoever denies Him, He will also deny to His Father in heaven.
So we could be SURE that Jesus will deny us IF we deny Him.

verse 13
Even if we're faithless ....even if we lose faith in God...
HE will REMAIN faithful (to Himself) because He cannot deny Himself.

God will always be faithful to Himself because He cannot lie...He MUST remain faithful to Himself.
Faithful to what?

Faithful to His word.
What's His word? All that He has said in both the O.T. and the N.T.
He promises to reward the faithful and obedient and condemn the lawless and unbelievers.
God will remain faithful to Himself, to His words and His promises, not only the nice promises which you love to dwell upon, but also those that are hard to take.

Faithful to His character and nature.
God IS morality, God IS justice.
He's a loving God ready to forgive anything,,,but He also promises justice and justice is based on morality .... His and ours. It's not good to say that one will be saved no matter what happens after he walks down that isle and promises to love, honor and obey God. What if that person stops doing what he promised? He may not be very just, but God is. God is light, and in Him there is no darkness --- He will not accept darkness - this would go against His nature.

God will REMAIN FAITHFUL to HIMSELF (not to us except in a non-direct way).. to His word and to His character and nature. Someone that denies God and acts unfaithfully toward Him, for example disobeying Him as a practice, will not be accepted by God because God cannot deny HIMSELF.

Please reply to this.
Just this please. (can't handle more...for now)

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think they were saved the moment they trusted Christ.

Please stop trying to talk for me, You have proven you have no idea what I (we) Believe.

EG, HOW could they trust Christ IF Christ hadn't died yet?

Is God not God?
Is only Jesus God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, HOW could they trust Christ IF Christ hadn't died yet?

If God not God?
Is only Jesus God?

I meant God. Not christ, Thanks for the catch.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted for righteousness.

They looked forward. Not knowing what was going to happen, but trusted God. We look back..

 

[GodsGrace101]

So now we qualify the word deny right? There is no such animal as found in the bolded above Fran.....saved or lost.....no such thing as saved and then lost it......or does it read...

He that believes on the SON has temporary life based upon his deeds.

He that BELIEVES (present tense) on the SON has LIFE based on his faith.
And faith produces good deeds.
Titus 2:7-9

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think they were saved the moment they trusted Christ.

Please stop trying to talk for me, You have proven you have no idea what I (we) Believe.

This should say I think they were saved the moment they trusted God.. Thanks to GodsGrace10 for the heads up to this mistake.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I meant God. Not christ, Thanks for the catch.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted for righteousness.

They looked forward. Not knowing what was going to happen, but trusted God. We look back..

Of course.
I don't know...It just seems like you and rim68 agree...

 

[GodsGrace101]

It does not matter what it sounds like. The video will not change what John said,

If he denys christ (in his heart) he is lost and he or she was never saved, period.. I will not go against the word of God.

OK. I guess in the end they're lost and that's what matters.
Wasn't Adam saved and then became lost?
What about the Prodigal Son?
You don't have to answer.
I'm getting a little tired of this.

 

[UnderGrace]

OK. I guess in the end they're lost and that's what matters.
Wasn't Adam saved and then became lost?
What about the Prodigal Son?
You don't have to answer.
I'm getting a little tired of this.

Well you could just post pictures of your cat and then all would be good!

No one would argue with that cute cat!!

 

[dcontroversal]

OK. I guess in the end they're lost and that's what matters.
Wasn't Adam saved and then became lost?
What about the Prodigal Son?
You don't have to answer.
I'm getting a little tired of this.

No..Adam was made like Christ with NO sin and the ability to sin....he fell and then WAS SAVED.....he did not lose salvation....

 

[rlm68]

Funny how DC believed this fact. Yet you have been attacking him all day.

Why are you attacking it, if you beieve it?

Funny how DC believed this fact. Yet you have been attacking him all day.

Why are you attacking it, if you beieve it?

He did claim those in the O.T. were not saved until Christ's shed BLOOD:

But if he did mention saved by faith, I missed it.

What I do remember, I claimed the O.T. peeps were saved and a few jumped claiming no. It was not until FAITH was clarified that suddenly everyone is on the same team. All I did was claim they were saved and was told NO. Moment FAITH is brought into the conversation and suddenly everyone agree's they were also saved. It's like a mouse in a maze here finding common ground. But it does seem once we do find that common ground, it's rather obvious we all generally have similar beliefs. Must be the wording or how questions are asked that makes people think other views are opposing. Learning experience I guess!!

 

[rlm68]

I think they were saved the moment they trusted Christ.

Please stop trying to talk for me, You have proven you have no idea what I (we) Believe.

hahahaha ok,

I am being bombarded by many claiming OSAS and the general opinion is similar with a few exceptions. One being, we can currently sin without seeking forgiveness of it. Most of the OSAS are claiming 1 John, 2 John, and Hebrews as their go to scripture source. And then I pay attention to who the OSASers are giving the thumbs up or winner emblem to. So, it's not like anyone has to be a genius after awhile to figure out the general OSAS platform and opinion!!

 

[rlm68]

If I misunderstood you. forgive me, But you made this comment. Every person I have ever heard make this argument believes they were saved by law. Nothing in this statment would lead me to believe you thought they were saved by faith.

You don't need to be forgiven my brother in Christ, because you never offended me nor done me wrong!!

I was just claiming I believed they were saved. Obviously I know the LAW nor GRACE actually saves us. But how we are saved in today's time, makes only perfect sense those 4 to 5 thousand years ago would also be saved by the same way. And I believe this due to another answer I provided you (God is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever). So, If yesterday God required FAITH to be saved, and we know today God requires FAITH to be saved, makes perfect sense that in the future God will require FAITH to be saved. So ALL in ALL, it's obvious FAITH in God is what has always saved us from Adam till now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK. I guess in the end they're lost and that's what matters.
Wasn't Adam saved and then became lost?

Adam did not need saved until after he fel so no.

What about the Prodigal Son?

He never stopped being the son. He was still his fathers child. He lost access to his fathers blessings.

You don't have to answer.
I'm getting a little tired of this.

 

[John146]

I meant God. Not christ, Thanks for the catch.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted for righteousness.

They looked forward. Not knowing what was going to happen, but trusted God. We look back..

Again, no one looked forward to the cross. They believed in what God had said at the time and then obeyed Him in what He said. Do you really believe they put their trust in the cross of Jesus before it happened? You say they put their faith in God? For what? Isn't the gospel we trust in for salvation the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ?