“About The Great Tribulation”

If you were rightly dividing the Word, then you would not apply these verses to the Church, but to the Tribulation saints (primarily a believing Jewish remnant as noted in Rev 12).

The Church is in Heaven while the judgments of God are poured out upon the earth.

This remark shows how little you know about the Pretribulation Rapture.

And since Christ is the one who first presented it, your accusation of "satanic" is blasphemous.

JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [NO TRIBULATION]

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [A HOME IN HEAVEN]

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. [A RAPTURE FOR THE CHURCH]

So im guessing you dont like the pretrib rapture?

That is just what you have been told by unBiblical preachers and the Left Behind movies.

***The word “opinion” is found only 3 times in the KJV Bible,

all in Job 32 in one of Job's friend's exhortation speeches.

And modern media (especially the talk shows) and gossip times (especially in Christian churches)

are mostly negative opinions.

Arguments about feeling and opinions do not bear fruit;

good discussions do bear fruit when participants want to learn.

And remember the warnings in the end of Revelation about adding or subtracting from the Bible?

And what about the words “learn” and “know”?

The Bible emphasizes knowing absolutes and learning experientially,

and the Greek word in the New Testament for intellectual know are in bad contexts.

And what about the two wisdoms mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1-2?

How many kinds of truth are there and which kind should a true Christian be daily learning?

Philippians 2:1-5 and Ephesians 4:11-16 indicates a top priority of Christians

should be learning Jesus Christ,

how He thinks and how He ministered when He was in human form.

And God said,

“So shall My Word be that goes forth out of My mouth:

it shall not return unto Me void,

but it shall accomplish that which I please,

and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” [Isaiah 55:11]a

1 So these three men ceased to answer Job,

because he was [rigidly] righteous (upright and in right standing with God) in his own eyes.

[But there was a fifth man there also.]

2 Elihu son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became indignant.

His indignation was kindled against Job because he justified himself rather than God.

3 Also against [Job's] three friends was [Elihu's] anger kindled,

because they had found no answer [were unable to show his real error],

and yet they had declared him to be in the wrong [and responsible for his own afflictions].

4 Now Elihu had waited to speak to Job because the others were older than he.

5 But when Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouths of these three men,

he became angry.

6 Then Elihu son of Barachel the Buzite said,

“I am young, and you are aged;

for that reason I was timid {and} restrained and dared not declare my opinion to you.

7 I said, ‘Age should speak, and a multitude of years should teach wisdom [so let it be heard].’

8 But there is [a vital force] a spirit [of intelligence] in man,

and the breath of the Almighty gives men understanding.’

9 It is not the great [necessarily] who are wise, nor [always] the aged who understand justice.

10 So I say, ‘Listen to me’;

I also will give you my opinion [about Job's situation] {and} my knowledge.

11 You see, I waited for your words, I listened to your wise reasons,

while you searched out what to say.

12 Yes, I paid attention to what you said,

and behold, not one of you convinced Job

or made [satisfactory] replies to his words [you could not refute him].

13 Beware lest you say, ‘We have found wisdom; God thrusts [Job] down [justly],

not man [God alone is dealing with him].’

14 Now [Job] has not directed his words against me

[therefore I have no cause for irritation],

neither will I answer him with speeches like yours.

[I speak for truth, not for revenge.]

15 They [Job's friends] are amazed {and} embarrassed,

they answer no more;

they have not a thing to say.

16 And shall I wait, because they say nothing but stand still and answer no more?

17 I also will answer my [God-assigned] part;

I also will declare my opinion {and} my knowledge.

18 For I am full of words; the spirit within me constrains me.

19 My breast is as wine that has no vent;

like new wineskins, it is ready to burst.

20 I must speak, that I may get relief {and} be refreshed;

I will open my lips and answer.

21 I will not [I warn you] be influenced by respect for any man's person

{and} show partiality,

neither will I flatter any man.

22 For I know not how to flatter,

[wasting my time in mere formalities, for then]

my Maker would soon take me away.”



From Webster’s 1828 Dictionary:



OPINION, n. opin'yon. [L. opinio, from opinor, to thing, Gr., L. suppono.]



1. The judgment which the mind forms of any proposition, statement, theory or event, the truth or falsehood of which is supported by a degree of evidence that renders it probably, but does not produce absolute knowledge or certainty. It has been a received opinion that all matter is comprised in four elements. This opinion is proved by many discoveries to be false. From circumstances we form opinions respecting future events.



Opinion is when the assent of the understanding is so far gained by evidence of probability, that it rather inclines to one persuasion than to another, yet not without a mixture of uncertainty or doubting.



2. The judgment or sentiments which the mind forms of persons or their qualities. We speak of a good opinion, a favorable opinion, a bad opinion, a private opinion, and public or general opinion, etc.



Friendship gives a man a peculiar right and claim to the good opinion of his friend.



3. Settled judgment or persuasion; as religious opinions; political opinion.



4. Favorable judgment; estimation.



In actions of arms, small matters are of great moment, especially when they serve to raise an opinion of commanders.



However, I have no opinion of these things -

Yours is just a slight misunderstanding because Jesus says right after that, that He is coming to make a home in their hearts here on earth:

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

When will you come to the realization that heaven is the hearts of believers right here on earth? And the truth is, the souls of dead believers will arise and indwell the living believers here on earth?

Jesus never taught pretrib rapture:

John 17: 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

The rooms that you are talking about are actually the hearts of living believers on earth:

Isa 26:
19But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

I dare you to read with an open mind in this folder and my Bible study tool of Revelation:
6e Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://app.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a
NT-22-- Revelation-- 4th Edition in ETRSF (20 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/fzje4ktn2cp088wr9wkj4z16nplvlerq

***Jesus Christ told the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was invisible. And Romans 14:17 “for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” With Holy Spirit help, he or she can be pleasing God with righteousness, and then is rewarded with at least divine peace and usually divine joy too. This is the best way to live. The New Earth will be the physical Kingdom later. Christians should be living Proverbs 3:5-6 and Jude 20-23 most of the time. The current battles are evil verses good and selfishness verses unselfishness.

1-- Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven Bible Study
https://app.box.com/s/ehz7uva001hyo13l6g1jtwo58zxn0i6a

01-- 'forever' Bible study tool-- https://app.box.com/s/8iiu7ii3ydqd8j1bf9mfsopcsscl2xfm

01a-- Heaven-- ETRSF (39 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/olilyab3mpxg3isbpjo7c020259nd44l

01b-- death-- ETRSF (18 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/zcmwnbcnoma11m81m1e7183enxhr4p66

Did you know that in Nigeria many true Christians believe that the first death is just sleep? I think the same is internationally. But the important issue is having the right faith in the Full Gospel. What is that?

Your post, "no tribulation", is a grave insult to all the Christians that have suffered and been martyred for Christ. Your claim that Jesus taught the pretrib rapture is a ridiculous lie and it's pure hypocrisy for you to accuse me of blasphemy.

"They will deliver you up to The Tribulation and put you to death" - Jesus to his disciples

"For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. "

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

"the Church which is His body" is made up solely of believers.

"the churchES" have both believers AND unbelievers/unsaved which make them up.

Completely distinct things.

The timing of the gathering of the church is deduced from comparing and cross-referencing all related end-time scriptures and understanding the nature of our God.

The primary principle is that, since Jesus suffered God's wrath on behalf of all believers satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ Jesus. When we believed we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God, i.e. brought back into a right relationship with Him. The scriptures also state that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from God's coming wrath and that Lord would keep us out of that hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world - (see Rom.5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9 and John 14:1-3)

Since we are not appointed to go through God's wrath and His wrath will be in operation during the entire seven years prior to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, then believers must be removed prior to the beginning of God's tribulation.

In a previous post you said that the gathering of the church is not mentioned in Revelation, but I believe that it is.

In Rev.1:19, John was told to write:

What you have seen = Everything from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, then and now and which also represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything which takes place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period

In Rev.4:1-2, John hears a voice which sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, which is the "what will take place later." The voice that sounds like a trumpet is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" found in I Thess.4:16 in Paul's detailed description of the catching up of the church. Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is caught up in relation to the chronological order of God's wrath.

In further support of this, in Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, the word 'ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters the word "hagios" translated as "saints" is never used. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward the word ekklesia/church is never used again, but only the word hagios/saints. It is a clue from God. The saints being referred from this point on are those introduced in Rev.7:9-7 wearing white robes which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, making them all Gentiles.

John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches and now here in chapter 7 and elder is asking him who this group in white robes are. The very fact that the elder is asking John that question would demonstrate that they are not the church. In addition John says that he doesn't know who they are. The next time that the church is referred to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride, who is shown to be in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 the bride/armies are shown to be following Christ out of heaven to the earth and riding on white horses. This is also supported by the fact that regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, Rev.17:14 reveals that those with Him will be His called, chosen and faithful followers.

In order for one to come to a right end-time conclusion, it is of the utmost importance to understand that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth, as being two separate events, which take place at two separate times.

After Paul wrote his detailed information regarding the gathering of the church in I Thess.4:13-17, in verse 18 he then says, "Therefore, comfort each other with these words. Likewise when writing to Titus about the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, he referred to it as the "Blessed Hope." That said, if we the church, the Lord's bride were to first go through the Lord's wrath, then we could not comfort each other with those words, nor would it be a blessed hope.

The Lord is not going to build His church and then put it through His wrath. And if anyone thinks that God is going to protect them in the midst of it, then they really need to do a detailed study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, because they don't understand the true severity and magnitude of God's wrath.

His promise that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us (believers) and that He would come back to get us and take us back to the Father's house, will take place prior to God's unprecedented time of wrath. All believers should know this on principle alone.

Here's what I wrote:

"Any discussion of the "great tribulation" that completely ignores the events of AD 64 - 70 AD in Israel is incomplete at best." (You're welcome to verify that on page 1 of this thread).

I didn't mention the destruction of the temple specifically.

My point is this: even if you don't believe that the events of AD 64-70 had anything to do with the "great tribulation", there are many people who do believe exactly that. Therefore, in order to have a complete study on the subject, you would need to address those beliefs and show why they aren't sound, and what is a sound interpretation of the relevant Scripture and historical records.

It seems to me that many people here are so given to bludgeoning others with their own views that they are unable to consider the broader discussion and discuss it respectfully.

Those mentioned above suffered the tribulation that Jesus said believers would suffer, which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. What they did not suffer was God's wrath. It is important to differentiate between the two.

It is more ridiculous to believe that we who have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God through faith in the shed blood of Christ, that the Lord would still put us through the time of His wrath. It is an insult to the Lord as well, because you are not recognizing that fact that He already suffered God's wrath on every believers behalf.

Obviously from the scripture above, the reference to abomination being set up in the [temple], the reference to those in [Judea] fleeing to mountains and the reference for them to pray that their time of escape not take place on the [Sabbath], would demonstrate that this information is directed at Israel, not the church.

Unfortunately, yes, we would have to discuss it, but it would be more of a contention and rebuke to those who believe in that scenario.

I wouldn't call it a bludgeoning, thought some do, but being zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word. Actually, I don't know why people should listen to those whom the Spirit has revealed the deeper things of God to, for they did not believe Paul either and he was getting his information directly from the Lord and that with power. In fact, if Paul were here, I'm sure that they would be arguing with him as well.

The Lord will gather His people from the four winds (from throughout the whole world), and have them transported to Judea and the Middle East (His barn), while the unbelieving will be gathered together separately throughout the nations in order to burn, which is to say Gods Wrath will fall upon them. If you follow the context of Mark 13, the gathering of His people comes after the GT, which is prior to His Wrath against the godless.

Matthew 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

***I never said that the True Christian Church believers will have to face God's Wrath. Didn't you read about my statements about 2 kinds of tribulation not including God's Wrath? "Natural disasters are not done by God. Who is the prince of the air mentioned in Ephesians 2:2. He is currently the World-wide ruler. There have been many examples of harsh tribulation of groups of people throughout humankind history and there is tribulation happening now in many countries. But I believe World-wide tribulation will have to precede the return of Jesus Christ. And you misuse the John 14 verses about His preparing places for His disciples, the Bible says that the New Jerusalem (the current Heaven) will come down to the New World. You misuse Scripture and are arrogant. Read what Jesus Christ said about the Pharisees in Matthew 23 after the Two Great Commandments teaching. You seem to have the same problems that they had.

Read my other statements about verses in Revelation and my items in 6e Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://app.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a
NT-22-- Revelation-- 4th Edition in ETRSF (20 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/fzje4ktn2cp088wr9wkj4z16nplvlerq

See the attached Bible study tool.

Unfortunately Louie you have failed to take the whole of the harvest motif into consideration:

Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The fact that the winnowing fork was in his hand means the events tied with it were near not 1970 years later and counting

He's previously warned his hearers:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

There is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".

John 4:35 “Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.

John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".

Mat 9:37 Then He *said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Mat 9:38 “Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”

I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.

A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:

Mat 22:3 “And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.
.
.
.
Mat 22:7 “But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.

The wedding and the harvest are all part and parcel of the same motif.

Hello Luigi,

The reference to the Lord sending out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds us referring to those great tribulation saints (regardless of nation, tribe, people and language) and they will be those, along with Israel, who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom. But, before that happens, according to the parable in Matt.13 of the weeds and wheat, the angels "first" gather the weeds, which are those who will have rejected Christ till the end and will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark. These will be killed by the double-edged sword with their spirits going into Hades and the birds gorging themselves on their flesh - (See Matt.13:24-30 and Rev.19:17-18).

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Click to expand...

You always have to keep in mind that there is going to be those from that group of white robed saints during the tribulation period who make it through the time of God's wrath, alive. These are the wheat who will be gathered by the angels mentioned in Matt.24:31. Keep in mind also that Rev.19:6-8 reveals that the bride/church is already in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen. Then in verse 14 the bride as the armies in heaven are shown to be following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses.

1-- ‘Wrath’, ‘Destroy’, & 'Destruction' NT Bible Study Tool-- ETRSF (10 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/u0rl16kkm3a2cvq4ytstjim9dbv8colm

6e Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://app.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a

1-- ‘Wrath’, ‘Destroy’, & 'Destruction' NT Bible Study Tool-- ETRSF (10 pgs.)-- https://app.box.com/s/u0rl16kkm3a2cvq4ytstjim9dbv8colm

6e Prophecy theories and fulfillments-- https://app.box.com/s/b4f214de6048af2f1b8a