A BIBLICAL EXAMINATION OF CALVINISM

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T

TheDivineWatermark

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#121
trofimus said:
If you want to propose a significant difference between boulen and theléma in the biblical use, it would require to search all the NT and see the usage, to decide whether these terms really always differ or whether they are synonymous...

It would be interesting to see.
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Well, I already supplied this for "G1012 - boule/boulen" (see below for the other):


[from Bible Hub]

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

^ [con't] "...i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose -- + advise, counsel, will."... "decree"


[...also from Bible Hub]


2307 thélēma (from 2309 /thélō, "to desire, wish") – properly, a desire (wish), often referring to God's "preferred-will," i.e. His "best-offer" to people which can be accepted or rejected.

[Note the -ma suffix, focusing on the result hoped for with the particular desire (wish). 2307 (thélēma) is nearly always used of God, referring to His preferred-will. Occasionally it is used of man (cf. Lk 23:25; Jn 1:13.]



Feel free to search the usages of each, in Scripture. :)
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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#122
trofimus said:
I do not say that moral evil (sin) is his direct and positive will, but he counted with it in his plan, therefore its his permissive will.
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Okay, great. Then it doesn't seem to me that you are saying that everything that happens was DETERMINED to happen because God wrote the script that way, before time, and NOTHING can happen outside of that [wholly] pre-written script (His 'decreed' will, as some suggest). It seems you see a distinction, as I do.
 
trofimus

trofimus

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Okay, great. Then it doesn't seem to me that you are saying that everything that happens was DETERMINED to happen because God wrote the script that way, before time, and NOTHING can happen outside of that [wholly] pre-written script (His 'decreed' will, as some suggest). It seems you see a distinction, as I do.
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I do not. I think that God knew exactly to every atom what will happen from the beginning to end of the universe. And created such universe.

I just do not think that God has a pleasure or a direct involvment in sin (moral evil). His role here is just passive, permissive, controlling, limiting etc. But has a 100% control over it and it was written in the "script" He "confirmed" to be created.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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trofimus

trofimus

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TheDivineWatermark said:
I thought my one point was proven in posts #110 and #111 :

https://christianchat.com/threads/a-biblical-examination-of-calvinism.180224/post-3742939
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I see just one verse there and two or three mentioned in the text, but not quoted.

It would look something like:

All usages of "thelein":
verse1
verse2
verse3
verse4
....

And in every usage it means this.

All usages of "boulomai":
verse1
verse2
verse3
...

And in every usage it means this, i.e. something different than thelein.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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#127
^ and I meant to say additionally, "and in Post #116 also"


Can anyone "resist or reject His 'boule/boulen [G1012]"-will? (answ: Lk7:29-30).
 
J

John146

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#128
Do any Calvinists believe in the power of prayer? Why would a Calvinist pray?
 
trofimus

trofimus

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#129
John146 said:
Do any Calvinists believe in the power of prayer? Why would a Calvinist pray?
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I do not think that God saw my prayer for the first time when I prayed it.

I know He knew it before the creation and therefore He already arranged the universe with His answers to many prayers.

And now you tell me - why would Arminian pray if God does not violate the will of creatures?
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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Nehemiah6 said:
One does not have to study Calvin to know that Five Point Calvinism is also spelled out in the Westminster Confession of Faith as well as the 1689 London Baptist Confession. You can find Five Point Calvinism - TULIP -- on any Reformed web site.
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The westminster confession is a trainwreck.

“God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

^Contradicting statement. If God ordained WHATSOEVER comes to pass, that includes evil. Furthermore, God specifically says that people RESIST His will. Now if God ordained ALL that happens, did God ordain in His will, AGAINST His will? Thats absolute confusion.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

“The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.”

^Another blunder. God caused sin, but is not the author of sin. God made the first fall happen, but secondary causes and this and that. CONFUSION. God is NOT the author of confusion.
I highlighted the contradicting statements in different colors. It wasnt just God permitting the fall, oh no, He did it by a POWERFUL BOUNDING and ORDERING. But He isnt the author of sin though. Yeah.
I did it, but I didn't do it!

Lets chuck the westminster confession.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#131
trofimus said:
Good, if you wish to attack westminster confession of faith, do it. But quote it and read it. Do not speculate what it may possible say.
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Just to keep it simple let's simply focus on the Five Points of Calvinism from the Calvinist Corner:

"...Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points....

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Now, since I have shown from Scripture that Limited Atonement is false, everything else automatically becomes false.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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John146 said:
Do any Calvinists believe in the power of prayer? Why would a Calvinist pray?
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Prayer is God inviting us to be a part of His plan. Think of it in terms of Esther.

Esther 4:
13 And Mordecai told them to answer Esther: “Do not think in your heart that you will escape in the king’s palace any more than all the other Jews. 14 For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father’s house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?”

15 Then Esther told them to reply to Mordecai: 16 “Go, gather all the Jews who are present in [c]Shushan, and fast for me; neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. My maids and I will fast likewise. And so I will go to the king, which is against the law; and if I perish, I perish!”

So when we pray for something according to His Plan, and the prayer is answered as prayed, this refreshes and renews us in our faith.

I remember very vividly the 1st time prayer was immediately answered in the way I wanted.

Try and forget about the politics of what I'm posting and focus on the point about prayer.

It was the 2000 U.S. Presidential election, coming off of 8 yrs of Clinton and his debauchery and impeachment. Everyone knew that if Florida went to Gore the election would go to him and it would be over.

Now back then when a network called a state for a candidate that was it. It was virtually unheard of that a reversal could happen. And lo and behold the Networks called the state for Gore! I know now that may not be true, but back then it was.

So I heard on the news, while at work, that Gore took Florida. My heart devastated for what that meant for the country, I fell on my knees and prayed to God, asking Him to reverse the course that Gore was going to win.

A short time later, the unheard of happened, and they DID reverse the call and Florida went to Bush, who ultimately won the Presidency.

Now would Bush have won had I not prayed? Or did God invite me in to see that miracle? It was God's Will at that time that Bush became President. Tons of Scripture that says He puts men in power for good or ill. I don't believe I changed God's Will. Just like Esther, He allowed me the opportunity to be a part of His Will. If I didn't do it, others would have. His Will can not be thwarted.
 
trofimus

trofimus

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#134
Hevosmies said:
The westminster confession is a trainwreck.
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Hey, I am not anglo-american, dont you want to attack the Second Helvetic confession I am familiar with, so that I can get involved? lol
 
J

John146

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PennEd said:
Prayer is God inviting us to be a part of His plan. Think of it in terms of Esther.

Esther 4:
13 And Mordecai told them to answer Esther: “Do not think in your heart that you will escape in the king’s palace any more than all the other Jews. 14 For if you remain completely silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place, but you and your father’s house will perish. Yet who knows whether you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this?”

15 Then Esther told them to reply to Mordecai: 16 “Go, gather all the Jews who are present in [c]Shushan, and fast for me; neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. My maids and I will fast likewise. And so I will go to the king, which is against the law; and if I perish, I perish!”

So when we pray for something according to His Plan, and the prayer is answered as prayed, this refreshes and renews us in our faith.

I remember very vividly the 1st time prayer was immediately answered in the way I wanted.

Try and forget about the politics of what I'm posting and focus on the point about prayer.

It was the 2000 U.S. Presidential election, coming off of 8 yrs of Clinton and his debauchery and impeachment. Everyone knew that if Florida went to Gore the election would go to him and it would be over.

Now back then when a network called a state for a candidate that was it. It was virtually unheard of that a reversal could happen. And lo and behold the Networks called the state for Gore! I know now that may not be true, but back then it was.

So I heard on the news, while at work, that Gore took Florida. My heart devastated for what that meant for the country, I fell on my knees and prayed to God, asking Him to reverse the course that Gore was going to win.

A short time later, the unheard of happened, and they DID reverse the call and Florida went to Bush, who ultimately won the Presidency.

Now would Bush have won had I not prayed? Or did God invite me in to see that miracle? It was God's Will at that time that Bush became President. Tons of Scripture that says He puts men in power for good or ill. I don't believe I changed God's Will. Just like Esther, He allowed me the opportunity to be a part of His Will. If I didn't do it, others would have. His Will can not be thwarted.
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How about David's prayer? David fasted and prayed for seven days that God would show him grace and spare his son. David knew God's heart could be changed through prayer.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

Do you believe our God is reachable and touchable through our prayers? Do you believe prayer can cause God to move in a situation that left to itself would have never happened, but because we prayed God made a way?
 
trofimus

trofimus

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John146 said:
How about David's prayer? David fasted and prayed for seven days that God would show him grace and spare his son. David knew God's heart could be changed through prayer.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
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Human time is not God's time. I am sure you know it. You just foget to apply it here.
 
trofimus

trofimus

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John146 said:
David knew God has the ability to change His mind on matters.
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For David, it was in David's child time. For God, it was from eternity.

Human language is not suitable for such matters, so bible describes it in human mindset and in human timeline.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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#139
trofimus said:
Hey, I am not anglo-american, dont you want to attack the Second Helvetic confession I am familiar with, so that I can get involved? lol
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I will be honest with you that i've never even read or taken a look at the second helvetic confession.
 
trofimus

trofimus

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Hevosmies said:
I will be honest with you that i've never even read or taken a look at the second helvetic confession.
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The same with me regarding the Wesminster...

The westminster was used for England, USA and English colonies... The continental Europe uses the Helvetic Confessions from Switzerland. These ones I read...
 
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