Temple of God - Christians or a physical building in Jerusalem?

meet not rapture.

But you believe there will be a big meeting in the second coming don't you?

When is the big meeting happen, before tribulation or after tribulation

Sounds like you are familiar with the differences already. Why ask me? Go ahead and choose and set yourself to study accordingly.

Quantrill

The Old Testament saints didn't have the indwelling Holy Spirit that we the Church have. I already showed this in (John 7:38-39).

The Church did begin at Pentecost. It couldn't have begun at any other time. Again, (John 7:38-39) and (Matt. 16: 18). The Church of Christ was yet future.

I wasn't talking about 'parables'. Scripture isn't a parable left to you and anyone else to dream up some interpretation.

How am I making words mean whatever I want them to mean? You are describing those who interpret 'spiritually'. Not me. Your last statement stands as proof as it makes no sense.

Quantrill

Quantrill

Any greek experts here?

Galatians 6:16 DOES Paul call the galatians "Israel of God" in that verse?


New International Version
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule--to the Israel of God.

New Living Translation
May God's peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God.

English Standard Version
And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Berean Study Bible
Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule, even to the Israel of God.

Berean Literal Bible
And as many as those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

New American Standard Bible
And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

King James Bible
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The church is not the temple it's the body. It came from the temple " house of God" our bodies are a temple as we have the same living light as the temple had in us. Jesus said we are the light of the world so let it shine don't cover it.

The old testament saints are shown having the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the anointing one, Christ) long before (John 7:38-39). So then we must search out the spiritual understanding by comparing it to the spiritual.

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was "in them" did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow 1 Peter 1:11

We know that manner of time was the reformation the shadows used as a parable for the prior time period had become the substance of faith.

Note… (purple in parenthesis) my added comment.

The Holy Ghost this signifying,(using the things seen the temporal, to give us the spiritual understanding not seen, the eternal) that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the "time of reformation".Hebrew 9:8-10

When the Son of man, Jesus was here because God is not a man as us he resisted men worshiping the Spirit of God by the things seen (his flesh) .This is even though some did know him after the flesh. When he did leave he left instructions to us we no him no more forever in that way .(2 Corinthians 5:16 )

When called good master according to that seen .The Son of man gave glory to the father not seen .

In John 16:7 the Holy Spirit informs us no man can serve two master, the flesh and the spirit .A hand full of believers did receive the comfort of the Holy Spirit when the Son of man was here.(2 Corinthians 5:16 ) .

But when he left and Peter preached the gospel 3000 and men received the comfort of the comforter. The greater things Christ spoke of that men would perform when the temporal flesh left. And the building of the church made up of many lively stones as the spiritual house of God the church was a continuation . Its the Catholics that want to make Peter the builder of the church

The first person recorded that received the grace of God by the faith of God working in them to both will and do His good pleasure needed to please God was Abel . Abel found favor as member of the bride of Christ, the church . He like all saints that did have the Holy Spirit died not receiving the promise of a new incorruptible body, the bride of Christ.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

The idea that no one had the Holy Spirit until Pentecost is simply not a biblical teaching

Here's what John the Baptist had to say, after he had just gotten finished saying, "I am not the Christ, but I am sent before Him,"

John 3:29 [blb] -

"The one having the bride is the bridegroom; and the friend of the bridegroom, the one standing and listening for him, rejoices with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore, this joy of mine is fulfilled."


John the Baptist understood he was "the friend of the bridegroom" [sent BEFORE Him]


[there is also: "the guests [plural]" who are not "the Bride/Wife [singular]," and "the bridesmaids/virgins [plural]" who are not "the Bride/Wife [singular]," and "the servants [plural]" of that future time period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, who also are not "the Bride/Wife [singular]" ]

^ [quoting]

"The first Adam in Eden pointed like a finger post to Him that was to come, was a type of Him as the last Adam, and yet He who was the last Adam existed before the first, even in eternity. In the garden of Eden, Adam was created first, and out of a crooked rib taken from his side while he slept Eve was formed. In its separation from the human body, such a thing would be in itself most unsightly, yet God built it up into Eve as a companion and helpmeet for him. The last Adam will have a bride, the confidante of His love, the church formed by the Holy Spirit a new creation in Christ Jesus."
--George V Wigram, The Coming Kingdom

[underline mine; italics original]


"a new creation in Christ Jesus"

@Angela53510 Could you drop by and tell me how Galatians 6:16 looks in the greek? Please?

I remember you said you have a greek professor and things, im assuming that means you speak greek.

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament came upon those for a purpose. He did not come as an indwelling Spirit. He could go and come at will. This is why David prayed, (Ps. 51:11), "Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy Spirit from me." This is why Jesus said to the believing who were under the Law, (Luke 11:13), "...how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Just like David asked. The Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised Christ, was indeed operative during the Old Testament as (1 Peter 1:11) declares. So yes, when the Holy Spirit came upon those Old Testament prophets, He was in them and influenced their actions and writings. But He could just as easily leave. He was not a constant in the lives of believers at that time.

(John 7:38-39) is clear. "...for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." There is nothing you can do with that except admit that the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was different than anything which had gone before. And Jesus was clear to define that difference. (John 14:16-17) "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth, ...but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

See the difference. The Holy Spirit up until Pentecost dwelled with His people. After Pentecost He dwelt in His people. That the Holy Spirit could influence people at times during the Old Testament, of course. But, as I said, that was not a permanent indwelling.

Therefore, as I have said, the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost was not just the Holy Spirit. It was the Spirit of the glorified Jesus Christ. Not just the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit that was welded or meshed with the Son of God and Son of Man during the process of Christ's resurrection. And, during the Church age, those who become believers, receive that Spirit, making them part of the Body of Christ. Totally different than what was before Pentecost. And totally different what will be after the Rapture.

Quantrill

I have second year Seminary Greek. I don't speak, but rather I read it. No one can speak Koine Greek, because it died out in about 400AD, and we don't know what it sounds like. People do say the words, but using modern Greek pronunciations, which we hope are similar to Koine.

So, Gal 6:16:

"καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ’ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ." Gal. 6:16 SBL Greek NT

"And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God." Gal. 6:16 NET

I assume you are referring to the part "καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ." I will get into the Greek, but this verse is very important in context.

" Those who want to make a good showing in external matters are trying to force you to be circumcised. They do so only to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For those who are circumcised do not obey the law themselves, but they want you to be circumcised so that they can boast about your flesh. 14 But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that matters is a new creation! 16 And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God." Gal. 6:12-14

What is the book of Galatians about? It is all a warning about the Judiazers in their midst. Really, we can go back farther in Galatians 6, and find out that Paul is not happy about them. These are the people that want the men who are Gentiles to be circumcised, and to live under the Old Testament commandments, which, as Paul points out both here, and at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, cannot be done! No one can be perfect enough to please God under the old laws. Plus, it makes a mockery of Jesus sacrifice on the cross, for our sins, the once for all perfect sacrifice.

Paul finds four problems with the Judaizers: (brackets are all verse numbers)
1. Their method is force (12a)
2. Their motive is fear (12b)
3. Their consistency is flawed, (13a)
4. and their goal is to flaunt (13b).

Paul then evaluates himself by:
1. revealing his goal (14)
2. reiterating his perspective on nationalists (15-16)
3. declaring his justification for being right, he has been persecuted (17).

Verse 14, Paul reveals his goal. The Judaizers may glory in their flesh, but I (Paul) glory in the cross of Christ. Paul knew he had died to the world, and the world had died to him through the cross. The world was connected to the law of Moses, and therefore the entire enterprise was done with. All that remains is Christ, and glorying in the instrument that sets us free - the cross. Paul's entire goal was to glory in the cross of Christ, and he would gladly accept persecution.

Verses 15-16, Paul declares his perspective on nationalism. once again, neither belonging to the Jewish nation (being circumcised) nor being a Gentile, (not circumcised) mattered: What mattered was that God had formed a new people, a new church, and that this new people was an entirely 'new creation."

This new creation includes both Jews and Gentiles, slaves and free and males and females. (Gal. 3:28). Social and sexual distinctions no longer matter. God's work is the new creation principle, radically different from the nationalistic-cultural model that characterized Judaism.

Paul cursed those who pretached a different gospel (the gospel of nationalism) at the beginning of the letter (Gal 1:6-9), so now he blesses those who follow the gospel of Christ. And what "rule"? What standard of measurement is Paul talking about? The measure where one does not take into consideration a person's nationality. The ones who consider a person in light of Christ, and his cross are the "Israel of God."

So who is this "Israel of God"? As early as Justin Martyr, he said that the Christian church is "the true, spiritual Israel." Plus, there is continuity between the old Israel and the church in that the church is a community of both Jews and Gentiles, who believe in Christ.

Of course, there are those who would have this "Israel of God" refer to only "Jewish Christians." But this goes completely against what the book of Galatians is saying, and the previous verses, which clearly debunk any kind of social barriers and nationalism.

Finally, getting back to the Greek, a simple way to make "Israel of God" refer to Jewish Christians is to change the καὶ, to "especially" although this is a rather obscure use of καὶ. None the less, even if Paul is only referring to Jewish Christians, which is inconsistent with Gal. 3:28, it is still referring to a "part" of the church, that is the Jewish Christians. It simply never would refer to Israel the nation, which Paul has repeatedly condemned as not being of God, because Christ and the cross is the new covenant, and the old is obsolete.

I believe it is best to see this as a blessing on the church, that is, all who live according to the new creation principle. And perhaps it is also a blessing on the Jewish Christians, who have had to stand against the Judaizers, and the breaking down of the barriers that have governed them so long. The point being this blessing of peace and mercy to those who follow Christ, which is the true Israel.

So, are you saying no Old Testament believers in God, and those awaiting the coming of Christ are not saved? So, David, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc are not saved, because the Holy Spirit was not yet given, even thought the Holy Spirit spoke to them?

There are a lot of people that believe that farce.....even though David speaks of his salvation in the present tense.............those who make more to do of the Spirit than Jesus are not being led of the Spirit....the Spirit points to and speaks of Christ not itself.....

I don't know of anyone who considers OT saints to not be "saved". That'd be... weird.

OT saints, Trib saints (if you will), MK saints... ALL are indeed "saved" persons. They just are not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23]


[and "the Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods]

"The Israel of God" argument is one of the dispensationalist arguments to claim a distinction between the church and Israel after the flesh.

But that makes no sense as Paul states that they will be cast out, so why would he pronounce peace and mercy on the persecutors of the Church regardless of what he said in Rom 9:3.

Gal 4:30 But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

No offence, but you might want to look a little deeper......

Israel is called the CHURCH of the 1st born in the wilderness <----same word Ekklesia-->Assembly<--church

The resurrection/change (A.K.A. Rapture) involves ALL that have been saved whether alive or dead and in the ground<--Job speaks extensively about his resurrection from the dead.

And for the record, there are many on this site that do not believe the O.T. saints were saved and or were not saved until Christ gave up the ghost.......

No, that's not the argument.

The argument is that "peace be upon them" refers to one group within the whole, separated by "and mercy," before finishing with "and upon the Israel of God" the other group within the whole (meaning, upon Gentile Christians who walk according to this rule AND upon Jewish Christians: those of Israel WHO BELIEVED [or WILL BELIEVE]"). If it were NOT separated by "and mercy," then conceivable it could be considered to be referring to ONE GROUP, by meaning, "even [kai] upon" [referring to the same identical entity both times]

Adam Clarke's commentary:

Verse 16

As many as walk according to this rule - Τῳ κανονι τουτῳ· This canon; viz. what is laid down in the preceding verses, that redemption is through the sacrifice of Christ; that circumcision and uncircumcision are equally unavailable; and that none can be saved without being created anew. This is the grand canon or rule in Christianity.


Peace be on them - Those who act from this conviction will have the peace and mercy of God; for it is in this way that mercy is communicated and peace obtained.


The Israel of God - The true Christians, called here the Israel of God, to distinguish them from Israel according to the flesh. See the notes on Romans 2:29; Romans 4:12; (note).

I believe I made a post about this very thing, earlier in this thread (page 8? 10? earlier, not sure what page exactly)

Nobody's arguing that OT saints ARE NOT resurrected from the dead.


Though there IS "resurrection" (of the DEAD IN CHRIST) at the time of the Rapture, this pertains to "the Church which is His body" ONLY, where we will be "caught up together" AS ONE (ONE BODY).

OT saints will be raised/resurrected "to stand again on the earth" [Job's reference, and Dan12:13, etc...]

I don't think Psalms 51 is saying David could loose his salvation and Christ would need to be sacrificed over and over every time he sinned. All of the things in that Psalm spoke of were a plea to stay close . In Psalm 139 David said when I wake you are still there.

I do not believe that God would begin a good work of salvation and not finish it to the very end.

The born again doctrine was needed for the Old testament saints like those in 1 Peter 1:11 as well as the new , Just as if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to Christ. Every old testament saint that died not receiving their new incorruptible bodies were raised having the Holy Spirit called the Spirit of Christ when Christ said it was finished. They because they had the Holy Spirit entered the promised land the new heavenly Jerusalem prepared as His bride, the church .

The difference between the old testament and Pentecost are the shadows in respect to using the outward flesh of a Jew as a metaphor as a historically true parable. This was for the time then present (the time of the Kings).The new restored order reverts back to the time of Judges when there was no outward representitive and men worship God not seen, as King, by faith.

The church age is a phrase people use to assume there was no reformation and there is some kind of a difference between the outward flesh of a Jew and the outward flesh of a Gentile. The church age as the bride of Christ began with Abel in whom God had favor or grace same kind of grace spoken of in 1 Peter 1:10. They received the end of their new faith the salvation of their souls that came form hearing God just as us today. God puts no difference between them and gentiles purifying the hearts of both by a mutual work of His faith.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:1 Peter 1:10

What applies from Philippians 1:6 for this side of the cross applied on the other side. Remember the work of salvation as the lamb of God is in respect to the foundation of the world.(first six days) And not from the outward fleshly demonstration in regard to flesh that did not profit that was promised in Joel I will pour out my unseen spirit .On the seventh day he rested from all His work

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6