Not By Works

I just got home from work a while ago I have made a few improvements to the graphic I am glad you like it

Amen! Greek scholar AT Robertson explains it well about the branches that are cut off - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh peron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

Have the Cainologists done enough today to remain saved? Nope....never have, never will....only genuine faith into the work of Christ saves....any embellished dogma has no power to save...!

Love it thanks.....gonna screen shot it....

What dcon ignores is James 2:14 to 26. Basically faith produces works. Faith without works is dead. Therefore no works no faith. This goes along with Jesus saying by their fruits you shall know them. He was warning about wolves in sheep's clothing. Looking at a person's works tells you if they are Christian or secular masquerading as a Christian. If you go to a church with a secular minister you will never hear the gospel message. That is their fruit or works.

James 2 NIV

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2 AMPC

14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.


Matthew 7 NIV Jesus quoted
True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 7 AMPC
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [ excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

What dcon ignores is James 2:14 to 26. Basically faith produces works. Faith without works is dead. Therefore no works no faith. This goes along with Jesus saying by their fruits you shall know them. He was warning about wolves in sheep's clothing. Looking at a person's works tells you if they are Christian or secular masquerading as a Christian. If you go to a church with a secular minister you will never hear the gospel message. That is their fruit or works.

James 2 NIV

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2 AMPC

14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,
16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?
17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).
18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!
20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?
21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?
22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.
23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?
26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.


Matthew 7 NIV Jesus quoted
True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 7 AMPC
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear [ excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

Have the Cainologists done enough today to remain saved? Nope....never have, never will....only genuine faith into the work of Christ saves....any embellished dogma has no power to save...!

Matthew 7:15
7:15–20 Beware of false prophets: Deuteronomy 13:1–11; 18:20–22 provide information on discerning and responding to false prophets. The way to tell false teachers from teachers of truth is by their fruits. Fruits here refers to more than their deeds; it includes their doctrine (see 16:12; 1 John 4:1–3). A person speaking in the name of God is to be tested by the doctrines of Scripture. The same principle still holds true today. Speakers and teachers should be tested against the truths in God’s Word (see Jude 3; Rev. 22:18, Jude 3; 19). NKJV study notes.

I can't see how this reates to the verses in James 2 that you have quoted.
James talks about works as a result of faith.
Genuine doctrine in action.

So the fruit is not works in Matthew it's docrine.
That's my understanding.
Further I think a genuine beliver falls foul of docrine, builds over and above the foundation of Jesus, it will be burned up but they are still saved having gone through the fire.

I think "Pride" is another characteristic of someone who adds works to the finished work of our Savior. True born again Christians will have plentiful works for their Savior but they take their rightful place as a servant. It is the proud and self-serving worker's for salvation who think Jesus needs a little help saving their souls. Here is an insight from Charles Spurgeon that reveals the motive of the proud self-righteous workers for salvation.

Quote by: Charles Spurgeon
"The Law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride; the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair."

God bless!

You are deliberately ignoring the issue that Jesus is talking about. The "fruits" of a person are like the fruit of a tree. Jesus was making that comparison. Bad tree produces bad fruit while a good tree produces good fruit. True, doctrine is part of the fruit, but also actions play a part. What I was mostly referring to is what comes out of their mouth but to an extent what they do. What is the fruit of a secular minister in the pulpit preaching a sermon? Will it be saved by grace through faith in Jesus or just some nice sounding homily. That would be the fruit that we need to look at. Why the refusal to understand what Jesus was talking about? It is very plain,

Addendum due to the short 5 minute rule
Faith produces good works. Works doesn't save. But as James stated faith without works is dead. Therefore there is no faith in Jesus. Therefore if masquerading as a Christian you look at their works (fruit) to see if they are Christian or not. Jesus was saying you are to look at the fruits (works) to discern a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I have to be honest with you TT.

I don't fully agree with the above.

A person can add works or should do works in order to ensure salvation or hope they will be saved by their works.

Aka I do good works and God will love me.
A pitiful life but a real one for many belivers.

Me being one.

The reality is that for me I had no idea or understanding of what Jesus did for me or accomplished for me.

So the works I did was not out of pride but in the hope that I would get into heaven, be accepted and loved by works.

It wasn't out of pride but seeking love and affirmation.

I held on to the hope of getting in by the fire.

It was only when I realised that God loves me as much as he loves Jesus things started to change.

The truth is that many genuine by believers who come to Jesus have experienced in live that they have to earn Gods love.

Many belivers have been spoon fed with food that contains ingredients crap.
Nothing good for the soul, nothing that helps growth.

This crap is "If you want to be loved, if you want to be saved, accepted and saved then do this"

Pesticides indeed.

For God so loved the world.

We cannot earn his love.

Alas many genuine believers do not get it.
In fact many belivers don't know that Jesus said "God loves them as much as he loves Jesus"

One verse in John.

What too many people do not understand is how God views our good works. Since He can look into our hearts He sees the works as dirty rags. It is only through the blood of Christ that covers our sin does He see us as white as snow. We give thanks to God for the grace through faith in Jesus that gives us salvation.

For goodness sake stop complaining about the 5 minute rule.
You know the rule so accept it and keep it KISS.
If you can then you do not need more than 5 minutes.

Yes faith produces good works and I also say that good works increases faith.
We may do a good work even we may not want to, but by being obedient it can increase our faith.

ROFL
Getting redundant in your post. Expanded out you said keep it keep it simple stupid. Remember I brought KISS to the board. At 73 I sometimes forget what all I was going to post. This board is the only forum with this short of a time limit. Others have a 15 minute rule. This time I went in in time but then my edit wasn't allowed when trying to post it. Why let an edit take place and the afterwards ignore it?