Not By Works

mailmandan said:
Obeying the 10 commandments is not the plan of salvation. If it were, then nobody would be saved because nobody has perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments, EXCEPT JESUS.

I usually get attacked by those who are zealous about keeping the Sabbath day (even though it's not binding on the Church under the New Covenant - Colossians 2:16-17) and such people confidently and self righteously believe they will receive eternal life based on obeying the law. I have been accused of following my own religious traditions by these misguided teachers of the law who pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" yet I have always stood by the true gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). I never hear my accusers mention anything about that, but they sure like to continuously talk about the Sabbath, the 10 Commandments and the law in general.

Yep.....John called the lawyers and Pharisees of his day snakes and vipers...Jesus called them the blind leaders of the blind, white washed coffins and fools, hypocrites.....You're right we should pay attention to the words of Jesus and John concerning legalistic Pharisees that would place us back under that which condemns and proves guilt...!!!!

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.

22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
but deny justice to the innocent.
24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw
and as dry grass sinks down in the flames,
so their roots will decay
and their flowers blow away like dust;
for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty
and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

WHO ARE THOSE PERVERTING THE GRACE OF GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR "IMMORALITY"?

ARE THEY THE ONES WHO PROMOTE OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S LAWS AND COMMANDS OR THOSE WHO NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS FOR FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES?

TO THE DOUBLE TALKING LIARS

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

jude 1

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE ĢRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALIYY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

titus 1

16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.
ephesians 5

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

[QUOTE="Seohce,
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

I am humbled you asked the discussion. Thank you.

I think it is important to actually read what the Messiah said.

Matt. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

He is speaking to what religious man has named "The Old Testament", Yes? And it was pretty much the same for Him as it is for us. In fact, at this time in history, there was no other Book which discussed the Messiah, which gave God's Laws, which provided examples which Paul said were "written for us, that were to be used as examples and as admonition for US. Paul called this Book "The Gospel of Christ" in Romans 1.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Old Testament quote)

What other scripture did the Christ ever quote from? How many times did He say "It is written" and what was He speaking to? In every case He quoted from what is known as the Old Testament. What other Book did Paul ever quote from?

Luke 24:
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Paul confirmed its importance.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

So it seems the Messiah is taking a special interest is letting His People know that These scriptures are still here and still to be believed. There are volumes of scriptures which confirm this theme that I will forgo in an attempt to keep the post shorter.

Fulfill "Greek" = "pleroo"} to make replete. (Replete=fully or abundantly provided or filled) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisify, execute, (an office) finish (a period or task) verify (or coincide with a prediction), accomplish, complete, end, expire, fill (up) fulfill, (be, make) full, (come), Fully Preach, perfect, supply.

Destroy "Greek" = katalno} to loosen down (disintegrate) to demolish, to halt for the night:- destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to naught, overthrow, throw down.

Fulfill does not mean destroy. These two words are exact opposite in meaning.

Your question implies that fulfill means to destroy. "What part of the law has Jesus not fulfilled (destroyed) yet". I know this is the teaching of the "Other Voice" out there that has influenced us all, but I urge you to take the time and think about what He really said.



Can you see what I mean BenHur? We have been influenced by other voices to believe something about God's Word that is not true. Just like Eve was convinced by another voice to believe something about God that was not true.




I would say yes and so did Paul.

Rom. 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

And where would we find the Will of God? In the Law and Prophets, Yes? Is there any other place on this planet where mankind can learn the will of God? I would say no.



We should find out who their Author is first, Yes?

Lev. 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, (Word which became Flesh) which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Rom. 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind

Whose "Feasts" are they? The Popes? or the Christ's?

1 Cor. 5:
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul was convinced in his own mind regarding this "Feast" wasn't he.

I am humbled that you asked me these questions, and I will share what I have been taught by the scriptures. But there are a lot of questions so I think it would be good to establish some foundational principles first. Can we agree that Fulfill and destroy do not mean the same?

If Fulfill means to "Fully Provide", would that not agree with scriptures which promise He will write His Laws on His Peoples heart? Did He "Fully Provide" the Sacrifice foreshadowed by the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law"?

Did He "destroy" the Priesthood, or is He still our High Priest?

I also long for honest adult Biblical discussions and am so grateful you engaged me for that reason. I am looking forward to this discussion and the edification it will bring to us both.

I'll leave it here for now but would like to ask something. Since John says the Christ was the Word of God, and He said He was the "I AM", do your believe that it was the Christ, before He became Flesh and dwelt among us, that gave Moses His Father's Laws to begin with?

I look forward to your reply

Your question implies that fulfill means to destroy. "What part of the law has Jesus not fulfilled (destroyed) yet". I know this is the teaching of the "Other Voice" out there that has influenced us all, but I urge you to take the time and think about what He really said.

Is this acce

John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”

NOTICE HOW YOU ALWAYS DISAGREE WITH SCRIPTURES AS IF YOUR INTERPRETATION IS MORE TRUSTWORTHY THAN THE SCRIPTURES.

THEY'RE NOT MINE AND YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN.

Typical straw man argument. I don’t disagree with Scripture. Just your biased interpretation of Scripture. I also don’t refuse to listen to God’s Word. Just your slanderous misapplication of God’s Word.

Jesus did not tell them to do it to maintain, or keep their salvation,

Thats where you er..

[QUOTE="Seohce,
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

="benhur, post: 3704064, member: 267119"]First of all, you did not answer my questions very well. When someone asks me a question, I usually quote the question, then answer it, then go to the next question. So when you get this do not think that I am a dominator, but you are making a lot of statements that are generally contrary to Christian beliefs. I am trying to get to the bottom of how and what you beleive, so when I ask a question, believe me it is pertaining to this discussion, and I wish you would answer it. Maybe by doing so we will find that your doctrine is good, so stay with me and we will come to a conclusion soon.

I did not mean for it to imply destroy. So you said that Christ did not fulfill all the law. You said that he would eventually fulfill all the law, but not until later.

As we say over here "Its bloody hard"

Spent most of my Christian life waiting for the slap down and rejection from God when I didn't shape up and failed him.

Except Im saying this is how one follows the Messiah:

John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”

None of us can follow "good enough" that we don;t need mercy...

In the same manner, this mercy does not excuse one from following Him...

Between the ditches leagalism and grace perversion, there is truth and the Messiah teaches that truth.