Not By Works

Well that passage I quoted literally says "born again" and explains it, so while there are a number of passages on this topic I believe that to be one of the most if not the most descriptive...

Also the passage you quoted all you have to do is read one more verse:

John 5:24-29,24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live."26 “For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself,"27 and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam."28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice,"29 and shall come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment."

how is it that "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim"

the "the hour is coming" is this

Mat 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

the "now is" is this

Matthew 27:50-53,50 And יהושע cried out again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit."51 And see, the veil of the Dwelling Place was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth was shaken, and the rocks were split,"52 and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the set-apart ones who had fallen asleep were raised,"53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the set-apart city and appeared to many."

these are the :

Rev 4:4 And around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white robes. And they had crowns of gold on their heads."

I see it as, the dead shall hear His voice is people hearing the gospel. He refers to the "dead" as unbelievers. Consider the Scripture, "Let the dead bury their dead. You follow Me."

But here's a Scripture that contains "born again" and it comes before the one you quoted.

1 Peter 1:22-25 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,

1 Peter 1:21-25, “who through Him believe in the Mighty One who raised Him from the dead and gave Him esteem, so that your belief and expectation are in the Mighty One who. Now that you have cleansed your lives in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another fervently with a clean heart, having been born again – not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible – through the living Word of the Mighty One who, which remains forever, because “All flesh is as grass, and all the esteem of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls away, but the Word of the Mighty One who remains forever.” Isa 40:6-8 And this is the Word, announced as Good News to you.”

SO you think even though in the beginning of the chapter when he says:

1 Peter 1:3-9, “... caused us to be born again to a living expectation through the resurrection of יהושע Messiah from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in the heavens for you, who are protected by the power of Yah through belief, for a deliverance (salvation) ready to be revealed in the last time,.."

you have already recieved it? If you look in both passages he speaks as if it;s already done yet says "having been kept in the heavens for you, who are protected by the power of Yah through belief, for a deliverance (salvation) ready to be revealed in the last time"

I see this as future...

Mat 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

this is when it happens:

Revelation 11:15-19, "And the seventh messenger sounded, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”And the twenty-four elders sitting before יהוה on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped יהוה, saying, “We give You thanks, O יהוה Strength Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is coming, because You have taken Your great power and reigned. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets and to the set-apart ones, and to those who fear Your Name, small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth. And the Dwelling Place of יהוה was opened in the heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His Dwelling Place. And there came to be lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

then we recieve:

"having been kept in the heavens for you, who are protected by the power of Yah through belief, for a deliverance (salvation) ready to be revealed in the last time"

that is why I said 3-9 is more descriptive, it gives more details... also if you have it as having been already recieved, 1 Peter contradicts himself from verses 3-9 and 2 you would already have an eternal spirit body...

Yes I do. I believe we have received it by the Spirit. But we also receive glorious bodies. There's a 3 part salvation going on here. Spirit, soul, and body. Spirit we are already joined with Him. We are already His holy temple. His Spirit resides in us. Our soul is being renewed. And our body will be changed.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION to those who are WAITING for him.

Romans 8:24-25 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But IF WE HOPE FOR WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE YET we wait for it patiently.

2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For WHAT IS SEEN IS TEMPORARY, but WHAT IS UNSEEN IS ETERNAL.

THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO CLAIM TO HAVE ALREADY POSSESSED ETERNAL SALVATION. DO THEY NO LONGER WAIT FOR THE LORD TO BRING THEM SALVATION SINCE THEY ALREADY POSSESS IT? ARE THEY NOT GOING TO FACE JUDGMENT ANYMORE?

Philippians 3:12-16 NOT that I have already OBTAINED all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are MATURE should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have ALREADY ATTAINED.

1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving THE GOAL OF YOUR FAITH, the SALVATION of your souls.

SALVATION IS THE GOAL OF THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.

OSAS IS A FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES THE WORD OF GOD.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. THUS YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”

JESUS SAID;

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” john 14:15

…” If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”matthew 19:17

“ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” john 14:21-24

THIS FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS JUST A WORK THAT MAN CAN DO BUT HAVE NO PART, NEITHER ESSENTIAL NOR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FF:
Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

A QUOTE FROM ElAmor’s POST

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.

Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?

They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words. says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.

Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?

They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.

1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.””””””””

WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION NOT AS INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR HIS OWN SALVATION BUT AS ONE BODY IN CHRIST(eph 4:1-16) WORKING AS GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD(mat 25:14-30) WHO ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE.(rom 8:1-17) WE HONOR AND GLORIFY GOD BY THESE WORKS OF LOVE, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE THAT BEARS GOOD FRUITS THAT WILL LAST..(john 15:6-17)

Luke 3:9 the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

1 Peter 1:3-7 Praise to God for a living hope Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a LIVING HOPE through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be PROVED GENUINE and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

2 Peter 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being INEFFECTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and BLIND, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his PAST SINS. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from

God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

“DEAD FAITH CANNOT SAVE” ))james 2:14-26)

“LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR” rom 3:4

Shamah said:

Incorrect quote:

John 3:3-6, “Yahshua answered, and said to him: Truly, truly, I say to you: Unless a man is reborn from above, he cannot see the Kingdom of YHWH. Nicodemus said to Him; How can a man be reborn when he is old? Can he enter the womb of his mother the second time, and be born? Yahshua answered: Truly, truly, I say to you: “Unless a man is begotten of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of YHWH. That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; but that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.”



Born again is this:

1 Peter 1:3-9, “Blessed be the Strength and Father of our Master יהושע Messiah, who according to His great compassion has caused us to be born again to a living expectation through the resurrection of יהושע Messiah from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in the heavens for you, who are protected by the power of Yah through belief, for a deliverance (salvation) ready to be revealed in the last time, in which you exult, even though for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by manifold trials, in order that the proving of your belief – much more precious than gold that perishes, and proven by fire – might be found to result in praise and respect and esteem at the revelation of יהושע Messiah, whom having not seen, you love; in whom you exult with unspeakable and esteemed joy, yet not seeing, but believing, obtaining the goal of your belief: a deliverance of lives.”

Now I know that goes against feel good main stream doctrine but it is Scripture...



The same one Yahshua attends. Believers, YHWH, Yahshua and the Spirit of YHWH...

Buildings don't make an ecclesia, the holy Spirit of YHWH does.

Click to expand...

You have NOT answered my question on Born Again. Which means, You do not know how to tell if you really have been Born Again, and you have been disobedient to these Verses:

Hebrews 10:25 (NRSV)
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (HCSB)
11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.


You even CALLED the FACT that the Human Spirit is DEAD until we are Born Again, INCORRECT QUOTE. Until you let that Holy Spirit into your HEART, because it is at that Time HE will birth your once DEAD SPIRIT into Eternal Life, and He will Pour God's Love directly into your heart, and He will IMMERSE you into the spiritual Body of Christ. You obviously do not know a thing about me. I am not talking about a feel good feeling, which I assume you mean a Charismatic Experience. SURPRISE, I am not Charismatic, and most here are Not Charismatic either. I do not believe in their feel good feeling either. I BELIEVE and TEACH A INNER, REAL PERSONAL, LOVE RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ HIMSELF. That is what I call BORN AGAIN. You rejected the TRUTH, out of ignorance, assuming that the Feel Good Feeling was what most churches meant by Born Again. Not Even Close, and only a few Churches would even believe that the Feel Good Feeling, was what Born Again means.

Now just so you know, the Human Spirit was BORN DEAD, because of the inherited SIN NATURE from Adam. Don't believe that too, well let me show it to you from Scripture:


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NASB)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


BODY is the sum total of all the cells of the body than you can look at with a microscope.

Now SOUL is all the Intangible parts that are not body, but they are still there: Thoughts, Memories, Emotions, Feelings, Psyche, Cognitive Abilities, Spark of Life, etc. In other words all parts of a human being that is alive at Natural Birth, but cannot be seen with a microscope. GUESS what the original Greek word for SOUL is? It is psychē, believe it or not. And here is JESUS referring to the Human Brain as SOUL:

Luke 12:19 (KJV)
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

Now we come to the human SPIRIT, and you just read it must be Born of the Holy Spirit. Hence because it is not ALIVE at Natural Birth, IT MUST BE BORN AGAIN, and once it is Born Again, it will have Eternal Life. It will be like you have two MINDS, when it is Born Again. The Mind of Flesh between your ears, is only concerned about the Flesh. However the Mind in YOUR HEART, is in tune with
GOD's will. The Spiritual Mind will as it matures on the feeding of the WORD, become Dominant over the Mind of the Flesh between your ears.

How do we prove the Human Spirit was once DEAD?


Colossians 2:13 (NASB)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,


Now you KNOW that your Body and Soul were alive at Natural Birth, so what part of YOU was NOT alive?

This is from the New Century Version, that makes it more understandable.


Colossians 2:13 (NCV)
13 When you were spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were not free from the power of your sinful self, God made you alive with Christ, and he forgave all our sins.


MORE PROOF:


1 John 3:14 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.


I am not sure you can understand this, and in fact you may think it is all foolishness:


1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last timesthere will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

WHY DO THEY NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT?

"AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD SO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO."

AND WHO TEACHES THAT WORKS OF OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS NOT PART OF SALVATION AND GO AGAINST THOSE WHO TEACH OBEDIENCE AS THE LORD INSTRUCTED?

THEY ARE THOSE WHO CLAIM TO HAVE "FAITH ALONE" WHICH IS VOID OF WORKS AND "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED.

A "WALKING DEAD" THEOLOGY

ephesians 5:6
6 Let no one deceive youwith empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

.

Yes, red flag when you "define" believe "as" obedience/works.

Believe, have faith in, trust in, entrust. Nothing there about works in the root meaning of believe.

NO.

The word "believe" - pisteuo can be used to describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19 or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith (James 2:14).

You try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. That is the problem. We are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). His sheep hear His voice and follow Him BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. You place the cart before the horse.

Regardless that Catholics say Jesus is the Christ, they error when it comes to the gospel. False systems of various works-salvationists may have a difference in style, but they are the same in substance -- "works based" false gospel.

True faith results in obedience to Messiah, yet not sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time.

continued...

Like I said before, disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief and obedience is a manifestation of belief--yet still not sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time. You error by basically defining unbelief "as" disobedience and belief "as" obedience/works.

The will of the Father is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life and He will raise them up at the last day (John 6:40). There is a difference between doing His will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED and doing His will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED. 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. If we perfectly trusted Him in everything, then we would perfectly do His will after we have been saved and NEVER sin, yet that is not the case. Believers trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, but they don't always trust Him in everything else and stumble at times.

If we are in Him, as John points out, there will be evidence.

Doing what He says AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH is a result of trusting Him, yet we don't always trust in Him perfectly in that regards. We are not sinless 100% of the time. The apostle Peter was a genuine believer, yet was he trusting in Jesus when he denied Him three times? What about Peter and the rest of the disciples when they fell away in Matthew 26? That was temporary, not permanent. They did stumble. Believers truly trust in Jesus for salvation, but they do not always trust in Jesus in every area of their life perfectly, especially as babes in Christ. It's a growth process towards maturity in that regard.

1 John 2:6 - the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Jesus walked in love and obedience, which is the way we should walk. That does not mean that our walk is sinless, without fault or defect, flawless and absolutely perfect 100% of the time, like Jesus.

We have gone over these verses numerous times and I agree with John. As long as you are not trying to use these passages of scripture to teach sinless perfection, I'm good.

Another straw man argument. The lie from satan is to get people to believe they are not saved through faith in Christ, but will be saved based on the merits of their obedience/works. Following Him to become saved, rather than following Him BECAUSE we are saved. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. His sheep do not ignore what He says and they also do not seek to be saved by works.

Refusing to obey is a manifestation of unbelief.

I already explained this to you. You are trying to turn "does not obey" into lack of salvation from a lack of works. Once again:

In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life". *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself or in good works. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing on the Son, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to believe on the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son.

As I mentioned before, I have often heard works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics) cite John 3:36 in the NAS translation of the Bible and stress the word "obey" the Son, then write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill out whatever amount of works they feel are necessary to be saved (water baptism, partaking of the Lord's Supper during Mass, obeying the commandments, performing works of charity etc..) and call that believing on the Son, yet they are actually believing in their works. Sound familiar?

if I could add to these great points you made m.m.d., they also constantly point to 1st John for command keeping, but they steadfastly ignore that John said the commands were to believe in the name of the Son and love one another.

they take what John said about commands and point back to Sinai, instead of pointing at the Son, which John did.

TO THE DOUBLE TALKERS

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

jude 1

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE ĢRACE OF OUR GOD INT O A LICENSE FOR IMMORALIYY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice d ead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who DIVIDE you, who follow mere natural instincts and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.


titus 1

16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, DISOBEDIENT and unfit for doing anything good.

ephesians 5
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

No. I don't believe the scriptures support your religious doctrine that I am bestowed immortality the moment I believe Jesus is the Son of God. satan also "GENUINELY BELIEVES" believes Jesus is the Son of God. So did Judas. So did those in Matt. 7 who call Him Lord, Lord.

Matt. 24:
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rom. 11:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved

Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.


Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Cor. 15:
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I believe this is the very reason the Christ, as the Word of God, shared the Eve and the Serpent story. To show us that the Serpent will use "some of God's Word" to deceive man into believing we are already immortal, that we are "already Saved". As it is written, "Peace, Peace, when there is no peace.

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's Time also believed they were "saved". but as it is written.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

HERE'S YOUR TRUST AND BELIEF IN GOD...

"FAITH ALONE" SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED".

HERE'S WHAT AN INSPIRED MAN OF GOD SAYS;

James 2
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

romans 11
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE ARROGANT, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

1 corinthians 15
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

"WHAT IF SOME DO NOT HAVE FAITH? WILL THEIR LACK OF FAITH NULLIFY GOD'S FAITHFULNESS?

WILL GOD THROW A WORTHLESS SERVANT OUT IN THE DARKNESS WHERE THERE WILL BE GNASHING OF TEETH?

DID GOD SAY THAT YOU HAVE TO INTERPRET WHAT HE SAID TO SAVE THOSE WHO ARE LOST AND ARE SEEKING HIM?

"LET GOD BE TRUE"

After BELIEVING and ACCEPTING HIM as our Lord and Saviour we then FOLLOW HIM and WORSHIP HIM in SPIRIT and TRUTH.

I don't see much of any of that. The truth is often missing on these pages.

As is your custom, you "omit" the most important part of the story.

5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?

Yes, another case of believing the serpent as did Eve. That God's instruction is against them, that He isn't interested in their best interest.

"for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread."

So God gave them over to the "other voice" they chose over God's.

6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Yes, God through Moses made those people look at their sin. To see what THEIR rebellion caused. what THEIR religion did. To acknowledge their sin. Not hide from it, deflect from it, or blame God and His unjust Laws from it..

that's not omitted. it's what the people were referring to when they said 'we have sinned'

I'm talking about Christ. but you're not.
you just love better to argue, and the Bible also talks about people like that. have you studied it, perhaps?

they confessed their sin and asked for an intercessor.
they got one.
then, AFTER THAT God told Moses to make the brazen serpent, lift it up on a piece of wood, and that all who did nothing more than look to it would be healed. amen and it is so.

don't rewrite the Scripture to fit what you want it to say, dude. that doesn't count as 'study' and it's incredibly unwise.

Studyman said:

No. I don't believe the scriptures support your religious doctrine that I am bestowed immortality the moment I believe Jesus is the Son of God. satan also "GENUINELY BELIEVES" believes Jesus is the Son of God. So did Judas. So did those in Matt. 7 who call Him Lord, Lord.

Click to expand...

Here is your FIRST MISTAKE.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


That Baptism has NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER.

That is a Reference to the Holy Spirit IMMERSING us into the Spritiual Body of Christ, which happens at the moment you are BORN AGAIN.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (NKJV)
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body,
so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.


ALL WOULD INCLUDE: THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, ALL DEATHBED CONFESSIONS, INMATES IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT OR THE SECURITY HOUSING UNIT, DYING BEFORE YOU CAN GET BAPTIZED, AND ALL SEVERELY HANDICAP PEOPLE THAT WOULD ENDANGER THE HEALTH TO BAPTIZE THEM IN WATER.

BAPTIZING THEM IN WATER WOULD EXCLUDE, ALL FIVE GROUPS ABOVE, AND HE COULD NOT SAY ALL.

Well Paul says it correctly in the passage you quoted "at the last trumpet"

That is when one is "born again" they recieve an eternal spirit body and recieve salvation entrance into the kingdom. As it say "call on His name and you will be saved" We might be sealed to be saved but this is when the salvation actually happens...