Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

Please explain how?

No, as I have stated, I do not believe God knows -everything-. He knows everything that is available to know (which is a lot..). But He gave people free will, and it is not possible to know every decision we as free will beings will make before those decisions are made. God persuaded Moses to return to Egypt to lead Israel out. God became genuinely angry with Moses when Moses kept coming up with excuse after excuse as to why he should not go. It was not a fake anger, it was not a predetermined anger. God did not know from before creation that in ~1400 BC He would be getting angry with Moses. God's emotions are real, His responses to things people do are real. Likewise, God did not know from before creation that he would flood the earth. He truly regretted making man, and was about to destroy -everyone-, but Noah found grace... (thankfully!)


Being certain in knowing absolutely everything that will happen. Of course God has foreknowledge. So do we. If you put a plate of brownies and a plate of broccoli in from of a child, can you predict which one the child will choose? Of course you can: the child will choose the brownies. But there is a chance that the child will surprise you and choose the broccoli. I think God's foreknowledge is like that, except on a much greater scale. He is God, after all. He knows -everything- about us, and can predict with much greater certainty than we can. But I do believe that we can surprise God at times.

Concerning things that God has said will happen, like Christ returning, the judgments, the new heaven and earth, etc, those things will happen because God will make them happen, not because God lives "outside of time" and sees them as already done.


No clash. God can read people's thoughts...

Roger, I have explained Roman's chapter 10 to you several times

No, as I have stated, I do not believe God knows -everything-. He knows everything that is available to know (which is a lot..). But He gave people free will, and it is not possible to know every decision we as free will beings will make before those decisions are made. God persuaded Moses to return to Egypt to lead Israel out. God became genuinely angry with Moses when Moses kept coming up with excuse after excuse as to why he should not go. It was not a fake anger, it was not a predetermined anger. God did not know from before creation that in ~1400 BC He would be getting angry with Moses. God's emotions are real, His responses to things people do are real. Likewise, God did not know from before creation that he would flood the earth. He truly regretted making man, and was about to destroy -everyone-, but Noah found grace... (thankfully!)


Being certain in knowing absolutely everything that will happen. Of course God has foreknowledge. So do we. If you put a plate of brownies and a plate of broccoli in from of a child, can you predict which one the child will choose? Of course you can: the child will choose the brownies. But there is a chance that the child will surprise you and choose the broccoli. I think God's foreknowledge is like that, except on a much greater scale. He is God, after all. He knows -everything- about us, and can predict with much greater certainty than we can. But I do believe that we can surprise God at times.

Concerning things that God has said will happen, like Christ returning, the judgments, the new heaven and earth, etc, those things will happen because God will make them happen, not because God lives "outside of time" and sees them as already done.


No clash. God can read people's thoughts...

Can you define free will?

Also, can you describe, at least roughly, how is God limited in His knowledge, regarding spacetime?

For example, is He everywhere?

Is everything held together by Him, including atoms etc.?

God chose Christianity, not individual Christians. He wants ALL people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and become saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).




No, I obviously do not believe the "predestination/election" view is more biblical. CARM holds to Reformed Theology, which is Calvinism, and I am convinced it's a false theology.

You left out the words "in him". The context in that passage is spiritual blessings in the heavenly places not salvation. God, before the foundation of the world, chose to give spiritual blessings to those in Christ. It does not, I repeat, does not say God chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world. Calvinists focus on the "us" instead of "in him".

You left out the words "in him". The context in that passage is spiritual blessings in the heavenly places not salvation. God, before the foundation of the world, chose to give spiritual blessings to those in Christ. It does not, I repeat, does not say God chose us to be in him before the foundation of the world. Calvinists focus on the "us" instead of "in him".

I would vehemently disagree that God wants all people to believe on the Lord and become saved.

We don't believe that, we believe that God gets everything He wants. He is not a God who "Wants" anything. If God wants to save someone, there's nothing that can stop Him. God always gets exactly as He wants, there's no hoping for anything. He just says the word and it is done.

We believe God is almighty, so He only needs to speak the Word and it is done. As almighty, He gets to choose who will be saved. Nobody can argue with Him because He is in full control of every atom in the universe and everyone and everything is subject to Him . We are His sheep, His Son is our Shepherd. He leads and we just follow and obey everything. He gives us far more than we deserve

He leads and we just follow and obey everything.

I would vehemently disagree that God wants all people to believe on the Lord and become saved. We don't believe that, we believe that God gets everything He wants. He is not a God who "Wants" anything. If God wants to save someone, there's nothing that can stop Him. God always gets exactly as He wants, there's no hoping for anything. He just says the word and it is done.

We believe God is almighty, so He only needs to speak the Word and it is done. As almighty, He gets to choose who will be saved. Nobody can argue with Him because He is in full control of every atom in the universe and everyone and everything is subject to Him . We are His sheep, His Son is our Shepherd. He leads and we just follow and obey everything. He gives us far more than we deserve


OK, one very important point you skipped over "In Him". Can you tell me when did those "In Him" become "In Him" was it when they chose to be "In Him" or when the Father decided to put them "In Him". We believe we were elect to be in Christ before, the Father created the world.

You would need to show me scriptures to suggest otherwise, or this remains the only logical conclusion.

Basically, the ability to choose.

Obviously, there are restrictions... For example, nobody has the free will to choose to create a tree.

And when you choose, is it 50/50 or is there always some inclination that leads you to choose one option?

People can be persuaded. We are to persuade people by teaching them the gospel.

2 Cor 5: (NIV)
20) We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore [you] on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Rom 10:
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Can you choose something without any inclination for the option? It does not have to be a theological thing, it can be just your breakfast.

I don't know where you're going here, trofimus....

Regarding breakfast. A person might really want a full blown farm breakfast, with bacon, eggs, hash browns, toast with butter and jelly, etc. But he has heart issues, he knows it's not healthy for him to eat bacon and eggs, so he decides to have oatmeal instead. He weighed the options and made a choice.

PS. Isn't it really, really late where you are?

Its 00:30 here I am watching some video about economics and I will fall to bed then.

Well, I am going to the mechanism of choice making. Free will indicates some equiilibrium point, a point, in which you see both options the same.

If, in fact, you always choose according to your inclination (one option seems to be better than the other), you do not choose freely in the sense of equiilibrium. And inclination is something you do not control.

One option may be significantly more attractive than the other(s).

Sure it is. Despite his knowing better, the person could have chosen bacon and eggs.

The only one who was present at the foundation of the world was the Lord. No Calvinist was present.

Can you give a Scripture stating that you were in Christ before the foundation of the world?

Those "in Him" were placed in Christ when the heard the word of truth, believed upon Christ and were sealed. Before I can be the praise of His glory, I must first trust in Christ. Before I trust in Christ, I must hear the gospel of Christ.

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

As you can see below, there are many scriptures supporting our view of predestination before the foundation of the world.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16 - So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 9:13-14 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


Romans 8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Ezekiel 18:20-21 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

It's not possible to dismiss these scriptures without ignoring their meaning, they are confronting and they need to be believed because they are not parables. They are direct and they mean exactly what they say.

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Your understanding of God is not biblical.


You do not understand that God gave us free will. We can choose to obey Him, or not. We can choose to believe the gospel, or not. God wants us to obey Him, He wants people to choose to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, and become saved.


Hmm. So you never sin? You always obey? You need to rethink your statements...

The rest of your post was not to me...

Predestination has zero to do with salvation, but the destiny of those who are in Christ.

Ephesians 2
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.