Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[trofimus]

There is biblical evidence for God not knowing everything.

Gen 2:
19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Gen 6:
6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 22:
12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Jer 7: (NIV)
31) They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

I think these are anthropomorphisms. These texts wer not dictated by God, but were written by men, with their vocabulary and from their point of view.

Also, notice that these verses are all from the Old testament, when the tribal theology was quite primitive and very anthropomorphical (my English needs to create words, lol).

In the New Testament era, during Greek higher philosophy, there are no such statements.

God knows everything that is available to know, but it is not possible to know ahead of time every decision we as free will beings will make before those decisions are made.

God is not standing in our time with us and looking forward as we are. He is above time, He created time and He is already also the end.

Simply accept it as true.

So, biblical faith for you is the same as I accepted that the USA exist, even though I have never been there?

 

[PennEd]

There is biblical evidence for God not knowing everything.

Gen 2:
19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Gen 6:
6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 22:
12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Jer 7: (NIV)
31) They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

God knows everything that is available to know, but it is not possible to know ahead of time every decision we as free will beings will make before those decisions are made.


Simply accept it as true.

Shrume. You trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You are my brother and I love you. Further, I think these discussions are going to seem incredibly silly in light of eternity with Him.
But you just said that God doesn't know everything that is going to happen in time. He is OUTSIDE of time. He KNOWS the end from the beginning.

You used the example of Adam naming the animals and God waiting to see him do it, as if God didn't know what he was going to call them?

When my boys were 1 or 2 I eagerly awaited to hear them call me Daddy. They both eventually did, as i KNEW they would, and I aint even outside the time domain!

 

[shrume]

I think these are anthropomorphisms. These texts wer not dictated by God, but were written by men, with their vocabulary and from their point of view.

I think the statements are true. God works with His creation. God actually responds to things that happen, to the things we do, to prayers we offer. It's not all pre-programmed.

Also, notice that these verses are all from the Old testament, when the tribal theology was quite primitive and very anthropomorphical (my English needs to create words, lol).

In the New Testament era, during Greek higher philosophy, there are no such statements.

I don't think it needs to be said in the NT. Just as while there are many scriptures in the OT that describe death, there aren't any in the NT. That does not change the reality of what death is.

God is not standing in our time with us and looking forward as we are. He is above time, He created time and He is already also the end.

I do not agree. I know it's a common belief, but I do not believe God lives "outside of time". He chose to enter into a time-based relationship with His creation. He responds to things that happen, to the things we do (and to things the Devil does..). His greater purposes will happen because He will make them happen, not because they have already happened "outside of time".

So, biblical faith for you is the same as I accepted that the USA exist, even though I have never been there?

In one sense, yes. But there are also evidences. Answered prayers, manifesting the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. Also, I think that the deeper a person studies the Bible, the more he will come to realize that it is an intricately woven tapestry that fits together perfectly. That helps build faith.

 

[shrume]

Shrume. You trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You are my brother and I love you.

Thanks, and the feeling is mutual.

Further, I think these discussions are going to seem incredibly silly in light of eternity with Him.

Eventually, yes. But I think it will be exciting to find out the truth concerning some things. I think a lot of people will be shocked to discover that some things they were sure were true weren't true at all, quite possibly myself among them.

But you just said that God doesn't know everything that is going to happen in time. He is OUTSIDE of time.

I am aware that that is a common belief.

He KNOWS the end from the beginning.

That does not mean He knows -everything-.

You used the example of Adam naming the animals and God waiting to see him do it, as if God didn't know what he was going to call them?

I believe that's possible, yes. God gave Adam DOMINION over the earth.

When my boys were 1 or 2 I eagerly awaited to hear them call me Daddy. They both eventually did, as i KNEW they would, and I aint even outside the time domain!

What about the other verses?

 

[trofimus]

I do not agree. I know it's a common belief, but I do not believe God lives "outside of time". He chose to enter into a time-based relationship with His creation.

How do you describe time? Do you believe that our time is created?

"His understanding is infinite." Ps 147:5

"Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all." Ps 139:1

"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable." Is 40.28

"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done" Is 46:10

 

[trofimus]

In one sense, yes. But there are also evidences. Answered prayers, manifesting the gift of the Holy Spirit, etc. Also, I think that the deeper a person studies the Bible, the more he will come to realize that it is an intricately woven tapestry that fits together perfectly. That helps build faith.

It would make faith to be an intelectual feature, right?

I am talking about the first faith, the first decision, not about building it as already a Christian like during of reading the Bible.

 

[shrume]

How do you describe time? Do you believe that our time is created?

Very good questions... lol. I'm not that philosophical.

"His understanding is infinite." Ps 147:5

It does not say God has absolute foreknowledge.

"Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all." Ps 139:1

As soon as you think something, God knows it, even before it comes out of your mouth.

"Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable." Is 40.28

It does not say God has absolute foreknowledge.

"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done" Is 46:10

It does not say God has absolute foreknowledge. The things that God has determined will happen will happen because He will make them happen.

 

[shrume]

It would make faith to be an intelectual feature, right?

I am talking about the first faith, the first decision, not about building it as already a Christian like during of reading the Bible.

People need to hear the gospel so they can make a decision as to whether to believe it or not. Faith is a decision, regardless of where a person is on the IQ scale.

 

[trofimus]

Very good questions... lol. I'm not that philosophical.

According to physics, time is a feature of our universe. Its inseparable from space (therefore its relative), its so called spacetime.

Do you agree that if physics is right, then God is, of course, above it and created whole the Universe with space and time, therefore created end from the beginning, therefore knows everything?

It does not say God has absolute foreknowledge.

What do you mean by absolute foreknowledge? BTW one of these verses clashed with one of your verses:

"and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them"
vs.
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all

 

[mailmandan]

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. 1 John 2:4-5

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep (Greek word "tereo" - watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments. This is DESCRIPTIVE of those who have truly come to know Him/are born of God.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. - DESCRIPTIVE of unbelievers.

He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. - DESCRIPTIVE of believers.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I am fully aware 1 Cor 2:14 is in the Bible, Forest, and I am also fully aware of how you mangle 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eph 1:13; Eze 33:11; and others to make them fit Calvinism.

A natural man can hear the gospel and understand it well enough to choose to believe it, at which point he receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and becomes saved.

Honestly, Shrum, do you think your last statement harmonizes with 1 Cor 2:14?

 

[notuptome]

Honestly, Shrum, do you think your last statement harmonizes with 1 Cor 2:14?

Romans 10:17 says that faith is obtained by hearing the word of God. Faith is how we receive grace which is how we are saved. The Holy Spirit moves upon the word of God convincing the sinner of his sin, the righteousness of Christ and the terrible judgment of God on sin.

You should have experienced this and it should have been explained to you in your discipleship.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[John146]

You would do well to focus on the word "US" also, because "US" is talking about people and Paul is including himself in his statement. Can you elaborate on why you think Paul is talking about it being "blessings" with supporting scriptures?

The "according" in verse 4 is pointing out what's back in verse 3, the "spiritual blessings". The "spiritual blessings in the heavenly places" are in accordance to what God has chosen to give us in Christ. The "us" is an entity, the church, which is in Christ. The "holy and without blame before him" is pointing to the future spiritual blessings that will be those who are in Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You're the one who does not understand it, Forest. Because you overstate the nature of the unsaved man, you have to distort many other scripture away from what they clearly state.


God is NOT responsible for making people believe. He wants all men to believe, He is not willing that any should perish (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).

2 Cor 5:
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Rom 10:
14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The natural man cannot be reconciled to God until he puts his Spirit within him. When the scriptures use "reconciled" it is directed to those that have been born of the Spirit and are disobedient.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Basically, my post was to show you what I found in Thayer's which didn't exactly match up with what you said you found in Thayer's.

I don't have any problem harmonizing the scriptures . . . The Father gives to the Son those who believe in him . . ."Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty." God does desire for all mankind to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

Jesus the Bread of Life
John 6:43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me.
John 6:48
I am the bread of life.
Matthew 26:26-28
Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Exodus 16:4
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I am about to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in my law or not.

 

[shrume]

The natural man cannot be reconciled to God until he puts his Spirit within him.

A person is given the gift of the Holy Spirit when he chooses to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13).

When the scriptures use "reconciled" it is directed to those that have been born of the Spirit and are disobedient.

You need to stop making up your own definition of biblical terms in order to accommodate Calvinism.

 

[shrume]

Honestly, Shrum, do you think your last statement harmonizes with 1 Cor 2:14?

Yes.

 

[shrume]

According to physics, time is a feature of our universe. Its inseparable from space (therefore its relative), its so called spacetime.

Do you agree that if physics is right, then God is, of course, above it and created whole the Universe with space and time, therefore created end from the beginning, therefore knows everything?

No, as I have stated, I do not believe God knows -everything-. He knows everything that is available to know (which is a lot..). But He gave people free will, and it is not possible to know every decision we as free will beings will make before those decisions are made. God persuaded Moses to return to Egypt to lead Israel out. God became genuinely angry with Moses when Moses kept coming up with excuse after excuse as to why he should not go. It was not a fake anger, it was not a predetermined anger. God did not know from before creation that in ~1400 BC He would be getting angry with Moses. God's emotions are real, His responses to things people do are real. Likewise, God did not know from before creation that he would flood the earth. He truly regretted making man, and was about to destroy -everyone-, but Noah found grace... (thankfully!)

What do you mean by absolute foreknowledge?

Being certain in knowing absolutely everything that will happen. Of course God has foreknowledge. So do we. If you put a plate of brownies and a plate of broccoli in from of a child, can you predict which one the child will choose? Of course you can: the child will choose the brownies. But there is a chance that the child will surprise you and choose the broccoli. I think God's foreknowledge is like that, except on a much greater scale. He is God, after all. He knows -everything- about us, and can predict with much greater certainty than we can. But I do believe that we can surprise God at times.

Concerning things that God has said will happen, like Christ returning, the judgments, the new heaven and earth, etc, those things will happen because God will make them happen, not because God lives "outside of time" and sees them as already done.

BTW one of these verses clashed with one of your verses:

"and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them"
vs.
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all

No clash. God can read people's thoughts...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Romans 10:17 says that faith is obtained by hearing the word of God. Faith is how we receive grace which is how we are saved. The Holy Spirit moves upon the word of God convincing the sinner of his sin, the righteousness of Christ and the terrible judgment of God on sin.

You should have experienced this and it should have been explained to you in your discipleship.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, I have explained Roman's chapter 10 to you several times, I guess you forget. Verse 2, says Paul was talking to his brethren, Israel, who have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge, and were going about trying to establish their own righteousness by the old law of works. You should identify with these brethren. You can be saved ( delivered ) from this condition by following Paul's instructions in the rest of the chapter. As I have said before, Most of the salvation scriptures have reference to deliverance as we live here on earth and not to eternal deliverance. These brethren, who were already saved eternally, could be saved ( delivered ) if they would listen to Paul's preaching about Jesus who is their real savior and not the works of the old law. Now, tell me how the natural man can believe in spiritual things, according to 1 Cor 2:14. Not even a little of them, just enough to accept Jesus, as their savior, as you have suggested.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes.

Please explain how?