Why Calvinism is NOT biblical

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trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#101
Aug 17, 2015
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#101
John146 said:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...as they were moved by the Holy Spirit
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But you must realize that it was not some kind of automatic writing, authors expressed inspired ideas by their own words.

Also, the situation about the Old Testament is quite a bad one. We have no manuscripts even close to originals, so we have no way to say "this was the original inspired text". Therefore, we should use the New Testament for any serious claim, not the Old Testament solely.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#102
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
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#102
trofimus said:
But you must realize that it was not some kind of automatic writing, authors expressed inspired ideas by their own words.
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The very words were inspired, every single one, not just the thought behind the words. The Scripture was given by inspiration of God...aka, the very words that were written. Words, plural, matter to God, not just the thought.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#103
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#103
John146 said:
The very words were inspired, every single one, not just the thought behind the words. The Scripture was given by inspiration of God...aka, the very words that were written. Words, plural, matter to God, not just the thought.
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Then its quite a strange thing that God changed His style, grammar and vocabulary with every Bible writer. Sometimes even several times in one book ;-)
 
Acadia

Acadia

Junior Member
#104
May 12, 2016
100
72
28
The Great Northern Wilderness
believenoteveryspirit.weebly.com
#104
Cee said:
I'll be honest it's weird to me when people say Calvinism is Biblical. I don't know of any other teacher that is given such a carte blanche recommendation. I know many excellent teachers, but I rarely agree with them on everything. Where I disagree with Calvin is his handling of grace. I don't believe Scripture teaches us grace is irresistible.
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Agreed. If we read Scripture, we can see throughout it that people do indeed resist God and His grace. Calvinism (and the 5 points thereof) would suggest that mankind has absolutely no ability to either turn from God or turn to Him. The teaching is that if a particular individual is fortunate to be one of the "elect", they are regenerated first (that is, born again) and then they turn to God in faith. Quite obviously this is absolutely unBiblical. Scripture tells us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The Gospel must be preached and heard for faith to come, and then when one has faith in the Gospel, one is born again, not before and not apart from the preaching and hearing of the Gospel. We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God", in that He knows the end from the beginning and knows who will turn to Him. Not, "elect" in the sense of "unconditional election" as taught by Calvinists, that God only chose a select few to regenerate and save, while condemning the rest to eternal damnation with no chance of salvation whatsoever.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#105
Apr 22, 2013
13,575
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#105
OK. Like all these type threads, they come down to my verses are more powerful than your verses. You want to think that the Creator, that is outside of time, changes His Mind on what He ALREADY knows happens, be my guest. I can list a slew of verses that expressly say otherwise. Of course ALL of Scripture harmonizes, so"the fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves" as Shakespeare said.

Numbers 23:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hebrews 13:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Malachi 3:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

1 Samuel 15:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#106
Apr 22, 2013
13,575
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#106
Trofimus I think, was the one that mentioned this earlier. I like the explanation given here at GOT QUESTIONS:

How then do we explain verses that seem to say that God does change His mind? Verses such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” Also, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” or “relenting” of something and seem to contradict the doctrine of God’s immutability.

Another passage that is often used to show that God changes His mind is the story of Jonah. Through His prophet, God had told Nineveh He would destroy the city in forty days (Jonah 3:4). However, Nineveh repented of their sin (verses 5–9). In response to the Assyrians’ repentance, God relented: “He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened” (verse 10).

There are two important considerations involving the passages that say God changed His mind. First, we can say statements such as “the LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth” (Genesis 6:6) are examples of anthropopathism (or anthropopatheia). Anthropopathism is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought processes of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinite God. It’s a way to help us understand God’s work from a human perspective. In Genesis 6:6 specifically, we understand God’s sorrow over man’s sin. God obviously did not reverse His decision to create man. The fact that we are alive today is proof that God did not “change His mind” about the creation.


The article goes on, but you get the point. God does NOT change His Mind. I can't even believe people think that!
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#107
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#107
PennEd said:
OK. Like all these type threads, they come down to my verses are more powerful than your verses. You want to think that the Creator, that is outside of time, changes His Mind on what He ALREADY knows happens, be my guest. I can list a slew of verses that expressly say otherwise. Of course ALL of Scripture harmonizes, so"the fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves" as Shakespeare said.

Numbers 23:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hebrews 13:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Malachi 3:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

1 Samuel 15:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”
Click to expand...
There are many verses, as you listed, that speak about God not repenting or changing His mind, and all of them speak of the nation of Israel and His long term plans He has promised them. On those promises, God will not repent. But, however, there are other places in Scripture where God does change His mind. Context, context, context...
 
Acadia

Acadia

Junior Member
#108
May 12, 2016
100
72
28
The Great Northern Wilderness
believenoteveryspirit.weebly.com
#108
PennEd said:
OK. Like all these type threads, they come down to my verses are more powerful than your verses. You want to think that the Creator, that is outside of time, changes His Mind on what He ALREADY knows happens, be my guest. I can list a slew of verses that expressly say otherwise. Of course ALL of Scripture harmonizes, so"the fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves" as Shakespeare said.

Numbers 23:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hebrews 13:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

James 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Malachi 3:6 New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

1 Samuel 15:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”
Click to expand...
I said nothing about God changing His mind. Perhaps you can address what I actually posted.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#109
Apr 22, 2013
13,575
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#109
John146 said:
There are many verses, as you listed, that speak about God not repenting or changing His mind, and all of them speak of the nation of Israel and His long term plans He has promised them. On those promises, God will not repent. But, however, there are other places in Scripture where God does change His mind. Context, context, context...
Click to expand...
Well, with that statement please refer to Hebrews 13:8.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#110
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#110
PennEd said:
Trofimus I think, was the one that mentioned this earlier. I like the explanation given here at GOT QUESTIONS:

How then do we explain verses that seem to say that God does change His mind? Verses such as Genesis 6:6, “The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.” Also, Exodus 32:14 proclaims, “Then the LORD relented and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” These verses speak of the Lord “repenting” or “relenting” of something and seem to contradict the doctrine of God’s immutability.

Another passage that is often used to show that God changes His mind is the story of Jonah. Through His prophet, God had told Nineveh He would destroy the city in forty days (Jonah 3:4). However, Nineveh repented of their sin (verses 5–9). In response to the Assyrians’ repentance, God relented: “He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened” (verse 10).

There are two important considerations involving the passages that say God changed His mind. First, we can say statements such as “the LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth” (Genesis 6:6) are examples of anthropopathism (or anthropopatheia). Anthropopathism is a figure of speech in which the feelings or thought processes of finite humanity are ascribed to the infinite God. It’s a way to help us understand God’s work from a human perspective. In Genesis 6:6 specifically, we understand God’s sorrow over man’s sin. God obviously did not reverse His decision to create man. The fact that we are alive today is proof that God did not “change His mind” about the creation.


The article goes on, but you get the point. God does NOT change His Mind. I can't even believe people think that!
Click to expand...
Sounds like a sly way of saying, "when Scripture does not agree with my theology, let's blame it on anthropomorphism, or come up with another ism. I'm not changing my theology."

When doing this, we can make God's word say anything we want it to say. I choose to believe God knew what He said and He said what He meant. I take the Bible literally unless the context is clear not to.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#111
Apr 22, 2013
13,575
9,093
113
#111
Acadia said:
I said nothing about God changing His mind. Perhaps you can address what I actually posted.
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Umm, yeah, I don't think I mentioned you at all. Baffled as to why you think I did.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#114
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#114
John146 said:
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. God was merciful, is merciful and will be merciful.
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By the way, I'm glad God changed His mind about me. I once was an object of His wrath, but now I am a son through the new birth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#115
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#115
This is a conflict between general idea of God and His properties and between few verses written from the human point of view.

We can either destroy everything we can think about a perfect being and go with some bible verse taking it literally.

Or we can hold to general ideas about God and see some exceptions in the Bible as antropomorphisms, later additions, commentaries or human expressions.

KJV Only people like John146 will go with literal reading, understandably.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#116
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#116
trofimus said:
This is a conflict between general idea of God and His properties and between few verses written from the human point of view.

We can either destroy everything we can think about a perfect being and go with some bible verse taking it literally.

Or we can hold to general ideas about God and see some exceptions in the Bible as antropomorphisms, later additions, commentaries or human expressions.

KJV Only people like John146 will go with literal reading, understandably.
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Man's ideas vs God's word? I'll take God's word over my ideas or anyone else's ideas. If you don't take the word of God literal, you can make it say anything you want.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#117
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#117
John146 said:
Man's ideas vs God's word? I'll take God's word over my ideas or anyone else's ideas. If you don't take the word of God literal, you can make it say anything you want.
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The quoted part of Jonah was not God's quotation, but an inspired commentary of the human author who used his vocabulary and his style of expression.

Or, it could be added later. Who knows. There are some properties of the real God that make it certain God cannot change. And you can find it in the Bible too, as PennEd posted. So its your choice which group of verses you will pick and use for your theology. Thats why a general, working and internaly consistent concept is needed.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#119
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#119
Well all the five points of Calvinism have their basis in the bible. Where Calvinism goes astray is how Calvinists apply them. Calvin himself would not recognize Calvinism as we see it today.

Would we not be further ahead if we simply preached the word of God allowing the word with the Holy Spirit to minister and convert the souls of lost and sinful men into born again blood bought believers?

No one is a Calvinist until after they are saved and indoctrinated into that sect. Same with Armenians so there is no difference. We are to make disciples not Calvinists or Armenians.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#120
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#120
notuptome said:
Well all the five points of Calvinism have their basis in the bible.
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Only if one is prepared to say that Bible truths are DISTORTED by TULIP, the most glaring distortion being Limited Atonement (Christ died only for the elect, not for the sins of the whole world). That is a very serious distortion, since it contradicts Gospel truth.
 
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