Why Calvinism is NOT biblical

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7seasrekeyed

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#61
#61
Cee said:
I'll be honest it's weird to me when people say Calvinism is Biblical. I don't know of any other teacher that is given such a carte blanche recommendation. I know many excellent teachers, but I rarely agree with them on everything. Where I disagree with Calvin is his handling of grace. I don't believe Scripture teaches us grace is irresistible.
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I disagree on the entire everything is predestined and of course what you say about grace

when God presented the law to the Israelites, He said "Choose this day whom you will serve" and then came the litany of all the consequences if they did not serve/obey God

do people think God just threw the choose in there for good measure?

through the entire Bible people obey or disobey. and are either blessed or pay the consequences

irresistible grace sounds more like making someone love you.

actually my head hurts trying to picture irresistible grace. all I see is 'force' which is not grace or faith

where does faith play any part if a person has no choice?

anyway...LOL!
 
O

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
#62
Jun 17, 2018
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#62
I think all the scriptures that pertain to predestination, foreordination and the elect, and election, have to be taken into context. Right after someone comes to terms with the full breadth and meaning of the term, Omniscient.

When God is all there is and no thing exists that is not of God how can anything at all be thought to operate of its own accord? When even what we think of as free choice is a cerebral function made possible by......God.
 
Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#63
May 14, 2010
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#63
OstrichSmiling said:
I think all the scriptures that pertain to predestination, foreordination and the elect, and election, have to be taken into context. Right after someone comes to terms with the full breadth and meaning of the term, Omniscient.

When God is all there is and no thing exists that is not of God how can anything at all be thought to operate of its own accord? When even what we think of as free choice is a cerebral function made possible by......God.
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Great point. Yes He is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. And in His knowing, power, and love He chooses to allow us to have freedom. He allows us freedom to willingly call out to Him.

Here's an interesting Scripture of Jesus showing this heart of God:

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
 
O

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
#64
Jun 17, 2018
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#64
Cee said:
Great point. Yes He is all knowing, all powerful, and all loving. And in His knowing, power, and love He chooses to allow us to have freedom. He allows us freedom to willingly call out to Him.

Here's an interesting Scripture of Jesus showing this heart of God:

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
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Yes, he knew they were unwilling.
 
Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#65
May 14, 2010
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#65
OstrichSmiling said:
Yes, he knew they were unwilling.
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I agree He did know they were unwilling. And if we go a little deeper we notice in that Scripture he also references their choices, "You who kill the prophets and stone those sent to her..." He's saying you killed the prophets, stoned the people I sent to correct you, you were unwilling to allow Me to gather you like hens. It hurt Him so much He wept over the city. Jesus revealed the heart of the Father.
 
machew

machew

Junior Member
#66
Feb 10, 2016
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#66
Cee said:
I agree He did know they were unwilling. And if we go a little deeper we notice in that Scripture he also references their choices, "You who kill the prophets and stone those sent to her..." He's saying you killed the prophets, stoned the people I sent to correct you, you were unwilling to allow Me to gather you like hens. It hurt Him so much He wept over the city. Jesus revealed the heart of the Father.
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I think the greater mind-blowing mystery is that God gave them the choice to be unwilling, to kill the prophets, etc even though He didn't approve of their choice (read the passage). Yet, we are still pre-destined and God can still act sovereignly despite or in the midst of our free will. If God is completely outside of time and can view all of time fully elapsed from beginning to end, He can see everyones' choices from the beginning of time to the end of time and act according to His will and purposes without taking away our choice. The mind-blowing part is trying to think of "existence" outside of time and how we are completely incapable of comprehending such an existence (God who always was, is, and will be).

Another humbling thought is that God would even humble Himself to the point of interacting with us in our very limited existence inside of time, simply because He Loves us and wants relationship with us.
 
Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#67
May 14, 2010
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#67
machew said:
I think the greater mind-blowing mystery is that God gave them the choice to be unwilling, to kill the prophets, etc even though He didn't approve of their choice (read the passage). Yet, we are still pre-destined and God can still act sovereignly despite or in the midst of our free will. If God is completely outside of time and can view all of time fully elapsed from beginning to end, He can see everyones' choices from the beginning of time to the end of time and act according to His will and purposes without taking away our choice. The mind-blowing part is trying to think of "existence" outside of time and how we are completely incapable of comprehending such an existence (God who always was, is, and will be).

Another humbling thought is that God would even humble Himself to the point of interacting with us in our very limited existence inside of time, simply because He Loves us and wants relationship with us.
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Well said my friend. I think of it like this: In comparison to God, Him becoming human, would be like us becoming an ant. So that we could go, relate, reveal ourselves, and identify with them. And then dying as an ant so that they can understand and interact with us in a greater capacity.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#68
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
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#68
machew said:
I think the greater mind-blowing mystery is that God gave them the choice to be unwilling, to kill the prophets, etc even though He didn't approve of their choice (read the passage). Yet, we are still pre-destined and God can still act sovereignly despite or in the midst of our free will. If God is completely outside of time and can view all of time fully elapsed from beginning to end, He can see everyones' choices from the beginning of time to the end of time and act according to His will and purposes without taking away our choice. The mind-blowing part is trying to think of "existence" outside of time and how we are completely incapable of comprehending such an existence (God who always was, is, and will be).

Another humbling thought is that God would even humble Himself to the point of interacting with us in our very limited existence inside of time, simply because He Loves us and wants relationship with us.
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Did God predestine Nineveh to repent at Jonah's preaching?
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#69
May 23, 2016
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#69
LW97 said:
Nope, I believe the true believer is eternally secure
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If by "eternally secure" you mean OSAS then you are really believing the same basic tenets as Calvinists. :eek:

And you are setting out in this OP to try to disprove the very tenets of belief that are the basis of your "eternal security" belief! :eek:
 
machew

machew

Junior Member
#70
Feb 10, 2016
23
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#70
Cee said:
Well said my friend. I think of it like this: In comparison to God, Him becoming human, would be like us becoming an ant. So that we could go, relate, reveal ourselves, and identify with them. And then dying as an ant so that they can understand and interact with us in a greater capacity.
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I view it more as us becoming a spec of dust compared to
John146 said:
Did God predestine Nineveh to repent at Jonah's preaching?
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The Bible doesn't specifically say that He did. However, if you have view of time fully elapsed from beginning to end(knowing all of their choices), then I suppose God could predestine them to repent based on their own choices.
 
O

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
#71
Jun 17, 2018
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#71
Cee said:
I agree He did know they were unwilling. And if we go a little deeper we notice in that Scripture he also references their choices, "You who kill the prophets and stone those sent to her..." He's saying you killed the prophets, stoned the people I sent to correct you, you were unwilling to allow Me to gather you like hens. It hurt Him so much He wept over the city. Jesus revealed the heart of the Father.
Click to expand...
Jesus was born to die and take upon himself the sins of the world. The new covenant struck in blood because God knew the last prophet, the Messiah of prophecy, himself incarnate, would be killed by them again. Only this time, those who believed in why he died there would be saved from the penalty under the old covenant.
How can there be anything Omniscience cannot know? How can there be anything Omni-Presence and Omnipotence cannot foresee?
 
Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#72
May 14, 2010
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#72
OstrichSmiling said:
Jesus was born to die and take upon himself the sins of the world. The new covenant struck in blood because God knew the last prophet, the Messiah of prophecy, himself incarnate, would be killed by them again. Only this time, those who believed in why he died there would be saved from the penalty under the old covenant.
How can there be anything Omniscience cannot know? How can there be anything Omni-Presence and Omnipotence cannot foresee?
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I agree He knows it all and sees it all. We do not.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#73
Aug 17, 2015
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#73
Good morning.

So, have you come to the truth that you are predestined, yet? :p
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#74
Apr 18, 2016
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#74
2 Tim 1: 8So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. 9He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#75
Apr 22, 2013
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#75
John146 said:
Did God predestine Nineveh to repent at Jonah's preaching?
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Sure looks like it.

Jonah 4:4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!”

That was the primary reason Jonah fled in the 1st place. He didn't WANT the Assyrians to hear the message and repent. They were a brutal people that had recently conquered the Northern Kingdom. So Jonah wanted God to destroy them.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#76
Apr 22, 2013
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#76
Cee said:
From His viewpoint, but that's not what predestination means. Predestination means I am destined to be conformed into the image of Christ. Eternal life is to know Him. As I know Him, I discover who I am like. The call of Christ is upward. He is drawing me up to lay ahold of what Christ already laid ahold of for me. Yes God knows my choices, but as evidenced by Adam & Eve we can disobey Him. And that unfortunately carries consequences because His ways are far greater than ours. But we can rejoice in knowing that He is at work behind the scenes causing all things to work out for good.
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I don't understand the comparison between us and a pre fallen Adam & Eve.
Before they sinned they had a choice not to sin. Until we are born again, we do not. The Bible is pretty clear that we are by nature sinful. I'm not saying this absolves us of responsibility for our sin, just that the comparison is not a fair or good one.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#77
Jan 13, 2016
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#77
PennEd said:
Sure looks like it.

Jonah 4:4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!”

That was the primary reason Jonah fled in the 1st place. He didn't WANT the Assyrians to hear the message and repent. They were a brutal people that had recently conquered the Northern Kingdom. So Jonah wanted God to destroy them.
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The message from God to Nineveh was, "Yet, forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." This is not a good news message but a message of destruction. Jonah knew that there was a chance that Nineveh might believe the message and repent and cry out to God, and in turn, God in His mercy would repent of the destruction and not overthrow them.

If Nineveh was predestined to repent, then did God lie when He said He would overthrow them in forty days?
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#78
Aug 17, 2015
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#78
John146 said:
If Nineveh was predestined to repent, then did God lie when He said He would overthrow them in forty days?
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Its a quotation of Jonah, not of God. We do not have a record of what God said to Jonah to preach.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#79
Jan 13, 2016
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#79
trofimus said:
Its a quotation of Jonah, not of God. We do not have a record of what God said to Jonah to preach.
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I'll have to disagree.

2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#80
Aug 17, 2015
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#80
John146 said:
I'll have to disagree.

2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
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"he [Jonah] cried and said..."

Considering whole the story, Jonah does not seem to be a man who tries to do everything God says. His anger against Niniveh could play a role in how he presented the message. Or maybe he presented just a part of it and left out the part about possible escape.
 
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