Law and THE Law

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Latour

Latour

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#21
Jun 11, 2018
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#21
Nehemiah6 said:
Well look at the English. You will not find "law" without "the" in the translations. Which is as it should be. And in some instances (as I pointed out) "the" is also in the Greek. You should move on from this vain attempt to create a new meaning for the Law and get to the heart of the matter.
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A translation is not the same as the original especially when you add your type of reasoning into the mix. The word law can mean a number of things depending on it's use and if it is preceded by the indicative "the".

A closer examination of the Greek will prove your hypothesis to be not true.

There is a difference between law....and THE law. The law was an OT standard that men tried living up to. Law is something that indicates some kind of order.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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#22
Sep 4, 2012
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#22
Nehemiah6 said:
Well look at the English. You will not find "law" without "the" in the translations. Which is as it should be. And in some instances (as I pointed out) "the" is also in the Greek. You should move on from this vain attempt to create a new meaning for the Law and get to the heart of the matter.
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That's not true. Romans 3:27 mentions law in a general sense by asking what kind of law. It has nothing to do with the law of Moses.

Where then is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what kind of law? A law of works? No, but through a law of faith. Romans 3:27​
 
G

Grandpa

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#23
Jun 24, 2011
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#23
Latour said:
Law doesn't produce righteousness. But without law we wouldn't know what righteousness is. The law reveals righteousness.
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I think that is exactly opposite of what scripture states. The law reveals sin, not righteousness.

Without the Lord Jesus we wouldn't know what righteousness is. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals righteousness. Not someones "understanding" of the law.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
 
Latour

Latour

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#24
Jun 11, 2018
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#24
Grandpa said:
I think that is exactly opposite of what scripture states. The law reveals sin, not righteousness.

Without the Lord Jesus we wouldn't know what righteousness is. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals righteousness. Not someones "understanding" of the law.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
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You need to understand...not just quote verses. If the law reveals sin...it also reveals righteousness...because sin is a lack of righteousness. Just like darkness is a lack of light.

So then the law is holy. Those who walk in holiness fulfill the law. So then the law reveals holiness. The same goes for righteousness.

Rom. 2:13 "(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;"
 
Latour

Latour

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#25
If the law says that my speed on a highway should not exceed say...100kph...but I'm in the habit of going 140kph...then the law reveals me as a speeder and a law-breaker. But If I stay within the limit then that same law reveals that I am law abiding. That's how righteousness works. If I love my neighbour, and am merciful, and forgiving...then am I not staying within the righteous bounds of the law to love my neighbour?

But if I begin to think I am better than others (and more "saved" than they are) and treat them as "heathens" when they show a lower moral standard to what I'm used to...and forget that I was once just as they are...do I not fail the standard of love commanded to me by the law that says...love your neighbour as yourself?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#26
Jul 18, 2017
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#26
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
That's not true. Romans 3:27 mentions law in a general sense by asking what kind of law. It has nothing to do with the law of Moses.

Where then is the boasting? It was excluded. Through what kind of law? A law of works? No, but through a law of faith. Romans 3:27​
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"A law of works" has everything to do with the law of Moses. Since the Pharisees and others believed that "the works of the Law" could justify them, the only law they knew was the law of Moses. So Paul had to set them straight and also establish a biblical principle, and I am supplying words to clarify what Paul is saying (not adding to Scripture as some will start complaining). "Under the law" always means "under the law of Moses":

Now we know that what things soever the law [of Moses] saith, it saith to them who are under the law [of Moses]: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds [works] of the law [of Moses] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [of Moses (which includes the Ten commandments)] is the knowledge of sin....Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds [works] of the law [of Moses]. (vv 19,20, 28)
 
G

Grandpa

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#27
Jun 24, 2011
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#27
Latour said:
You need to understand...not just quote verses. If the law reveals sin...it also reveals righteousness...because sin is a lack of righteousness. Just like darkness is a lack of light.

So then the law is holy. Those who walk in holiness fulfill the law. So then the law reveals holiness. The same goes for righteousness.

Rom. 2:13 "(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;"
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It revealed righteousness to the Lord Jesus Christ.

To everyone else it reveals death and condemnation.

Unless they are ignorant of what the law says. And also ignorant to the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 2:16-21
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 
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GodisONE

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#28
Jul 11, 2018
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#28
the LAW clearly exists, because we are held in the fact that when we are born, we are born into sin. and that sin, is according to the LAW between God and Adam. and it is then upheld via the Mosaic LAW. Yes Yeshua fulfilled the LAW, but we are not abiding in GRACE until we accept Yeshua. until we accept Yeshua, we are living in sin that is in accordance to the LAW. and as long as sin exists, so does the LAW that defines it.

and even under GRACE, when we sin, the Holy Ghost within us makes that sin known until we put it under the BLOOD by seeking forgiveness. so even in the condition of GRACE, the Holy Ghost upholds the LAW against our sins.

I believe this is why David wrote in the Book of Psalms about forgiving the sins hidden within the heart that he was unaware of. he specifically asked they be made known that he could seek forgiveness. this clearly is what the Holy Ghost does for us under the condition of GRACE, makes our sins known, because the Holy Ghost is upholding the LAW that continually judges our sins.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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#29
Sep 4, 2012
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#29
Nehemiah6 said:
"A law of works" has everything to do with the law of Moses. Since the Pharisees and others believed that "the works of the Law" could justify them, the only law they knew was the law of Moses. So Paul had to set them straight and also establish a biblical principle, and I am supplying words to clarify what Paul is saying (not adding to Scripture as some will start complaining). "Under the law" always means "under the law of Moses":
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I just checked and the word law is not in the phrase "a law of works"; it simply says "Of works?" The word law was added by the translator. So again, the word law does appear in Paul's writings without referring specifically to the law of Moses. In Romans 3:27 he's simply asking "through what kind of law" (διά ποίου νόμου).

G4169 ποῖος poios (poy`-os) p/i.
1. individualizing interrogative (of character) what sort of
2. (of number) which one
 
E

eternally-gratefull

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#30
#30
Latour said:
Law doesn't produce righteousness. But without law we wouldn't know what righteousness is. The law reveals righteousness.
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Sort of, that was not the purpose of the law, so it can not completely do this, because as we saw in jesus day, people could appear to obey the letter but be totally unrighteous sinners. Because the law does not reveal every type of sin.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

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#31
#31
Latour said:
You need to understand...not just quote verses. If the law reveals sin...it also reveals righteousness...because sin is a lack of righteousness. Just like darkness is a lack of light.

So then the law is holy. Those who walk in holiness fulfill the law. So then the law reveals holiness. The same goes for righteousness.

Rom. 2:13 "(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;"
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The law could only reveal righteousness if it exposed every possible sin, and showed us how to be obedient, it does neither.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#32
#32
Latour said:
If the law says that my speed on a highway should not exceed say...100kph...but I'm in the habit of going 140kph...then the law reveals me as a speeder and a law-breaker. But If I stay within the limit then that same law reveals that I am law abiding. That's how righteousness works. If I love my neighbour, and am merciful, and forgiving...then am I not staying within the righteous bounds of the law to love my neighbour?

But if I begin to think I am better than others (and more "saved" than they are) and treat them as "heathens" when they show a lower moral standard to what I'm used to...and forget that I was once just as they are...do I not fail the standard of love commanded to me by the law that says...love your neighbour as yourself?
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Yet two people can drive under the speed limit, and one person be in sin, and one not in sin

Thats the problem with laws, it can give you a false sence of righteousness.
 
Latour

Latour

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#33
Jun 11, 2018
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#33
GodisONE said:
the LAW clearly exists, because we are held in the fact that when we are born, we are born into sin. and that sin, is according to the LAW between God and Adam. and it is then upheld via the Mosaic LAW. Yes Yeshua fulfilled the LAW, but we are not abiding in GRACE until we accept Yeshua. until we accept Yeshua, we are living in sin that is in accordance to the LAW. and as long as sin exists, so does the LAW that defines it.

and even under GRACE, when we sin, the Holy Ghost within us makes that sin known until we put it under the BLOOD by seeking forgiveness. so even in the condition of GRACE, the Holy Ghost upholds the LAW against our sins.

I believe this is why David wrote in the Book of Psalms about forgiving the sins hidden within the heart that he was unaware of. he specifically asked they be made known that he could seek forgiveness. this clearly is what the Holy Ghost does for us under the condition of GRACE, makes our sins known, because the Holy Ghost is upholding the LAW that continually judges our sins.
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What you are describing is not necessarily exclusive to Christianity. All men have a conscience (unless it becomes seared) so that people will feel guilty and seek forgiveness.

What does it mean to accept Jesus???

Here again we can easily confuse what is natural to all men who have maintained a conscience towards God.

1 John doesn't say "when" we sin....but rather "if" we sin....because under grace we have the power over sin. THAT is the difference between a regular human with a conscience (but without power) and one who is IN Christ that walks by the power that resurrected Jesus from the dead (grace).

I think too often people confuse the mercy of God with grace.

How do we obtain the mercy of God? By being merciful to others. This is not a "Christian" thing per se.

The way of Christ is much more powerful than what many have expressed here.
 
Latour

Latour

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#34
Jun 11, 2018
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#34
This idea of "accepting Jesus" is not biblical (it is cultural and religious) and is NOT according to law. God doesn't need to be accepted. We don't need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to make it count...Jesus already died for the sins of the whole world...and this without our approval.

Many false teachers have indeed arisen to confuse many...and stop them from actually entering into Christ...being led to believe that they have already done everything they need to for their "salvation."

But salvation is away from sin and into the life of Jesus Christ. A person who sins is a slave to sin. Jesus said it and so does Paul.

Did you not know this?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God is merciful to forgive our sins IF we mean to follow Him...but this is not what it means to be under grace.

Under grace means we are no longer affected by other laws...including the law that previously held us in bondage to sin. We have been set free. That is the truth. All who are in Christ have the power over sin.
 
Latour

Latour

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#35
Jun 11, 2018
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#35
Judgment day is not about what we have accepted about God...but it is the opposite. WE will either be accepted or rejected. And so it is at this time. We strive to please God and be accepted of Him. Our "acceptance" of mercy is self-interest. There is no merit in accepting mercy. Faith brings us to follow Christ who knew no sin. IN Him is no sin. So then we seek to enter into Christ so that we might fulfill the law of God and not sin.

The real issue is coming to God. We don't need to accept Jesus...we need to go to Him....and to follow Him. This is a moment by moment thing...not a one shot deal.

The Christian race is a spiritual race. One must run to the end of the race in order to qualify for any kind of position in the kingdom. A person who thinks they are "saved" or have won the race don't yet understand the nature of the race.

We are moving from one kind of life (according to the flesh and sin) to a new spiritual kind of life (one which has been already perfected in Christ).

We need to overcome just as Jesus overcame...not instead of. Jesus did not overcome for us. He overcame to give us the grace to do exactly as He did. That is the truth that many cannot abide....since they have been deceived by the evil one.
 
G

garee

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#36
Mar 28, 2016
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#36
Latour said:
Sometimes I think the bible is meant to be obscure...on purpose...so that people can form a quick opinion about it and then argue with others who also think "I got it."
Most people are happy with the easy answers and surefire interpretations that we can get from self-assured people.

But the bible is indeed a very deep set of writings that are very difficult to assemble into a unified way of interpreting in a consistent way.

Take the issue of the law (Nomos) in Greek.

There are so many contradictory sounding things said of the law as in...

We are not under the law but under grace...yet we must fulfill the law...does faith abolish the law...no! it establishes it....etc

A big problem is the way the translators chose to leave out certain words...and add others to the text. While this might make the English sound more fluid...it all but destroys the meaning of the text.

Here is an example...

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

This is a problem if we consider we are no longer under the law. So what gives? Are we to pretend to understand and just ignore the problem? Why add words to the text?

The truth is that ALL covenants from God are based on law. There is no such thing as a covenant of grace.

Romans 3:31 should read (if we leave out the "the"'s that were added to the text)

"Do we make void LAW through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish LAW."

(notice no more "the"s in the corrected text.)

The New Covenant is based on LAW...a higher law...the law of faith.

So when we read of "THE LAW" we are talking about the list of commandments and ordinances from the Old Covenant. These are separated into 2 kinds of laws...the law of righteousness...and the law of holiness (Mosaic)

The law of righteousness remains in effect as it is a gauge to our human behaviour towards loving others.

But the law of holiness has been changed. Holiness is only found IN Christ Jesus. The temple ordinances and rites have now ceased....to the effect that WE are now the temple of the living God.
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I would agree and offer there are two kinds of laws. the written law as that seen which kills showing all unconverted men stand guilty as law that will remain on the book until the end of time . And the law of faith as that not seen hidden in parables concealed from natural man according to the prescription given to us in 2 Corinthians 4:18.

Romans 3:27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The law of faith is in respect to Christ work of faith or labor of His love not of our own selves.

By the faith of Christ, of God, we can beleive Him and therefore please Him not seen the eternal . Without his faith working in us, yoked with us to both will and do His god b pleasure, no man could please or understand God not seen. (imputed righteousness))

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. Corinthians 4:18

The perfect law of God according to the law of faith (the unseen eternal Spirit of the law ) is the work of God working in us .It quickens our souls so that we can understand him not seen and performs other works of God that he appoints to us ..

His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. Psalm 19:6-8

The "law of faith" as that not seen, the eternal performs all those works of His faith that he works in us .(not of us the temporal )

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 
G

garee

Banned
#37
Mar 28, 2016
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#37
Latour said:
So then we retain the law of righteousness since people are still people and we still need to love them as ourselves.

We will call this...salt. To be salty means to be humble, show mercy to others...to be kind and giving. To forgive and not judge. To think the best of others. This quality is loved by God. That we LOVE OTHERS.

We also have a new law based on faith that brings down power from heaven the effect of which is...light. This light is the life of Christ given to mankind in the form of grace. Grace is the power to produce light in holiness from God. It is the power to love as Jesus loves. It is the power to LOVE GOD as He ought to be loved.

So we see that the New Covenant is not the abolishing of humility and gentleness towards others...no, it is being built on it.

If we seek to build on Christ but without love for others...then we have lost our saltiness (that which preserves the world) and are not fit for anything but the dung heap.
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I would think that salt that is used in every sacrifice speaks more of judgment. Not so much as a preservative as more common idea.

We are the salt of the world as those who bring the letter of the law giving judgment to the word of God . like the thorn that pricked Saul side before he was converted, something to move a person to faith previously having none. Thorns are used like salt in the scriptures

Leviticus 2:13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

Again to remind us of God's judgement

Genesis 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Salt destroys completely.
 
Latour

Latour

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#38
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#38
garee said:
I would agree and offer there are two kinds of laws. the written law as that seen which kills showing all unconverted men stand guilty as law that will remain on the book until the end of time . And the law of faith as that not seen hidden in parables concealed from natural man according to the prescription given to us in 2 Corinthians 4:18.

Romans 3:27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The law of faith is in respect to Christ work of faith or labor of His love not of our own selves.

By the faith of Christ, of God, we can beleive Him and therefore please Him not seen the eternal . Without his faith working in us, yoked with us to both will and do His god b pleasure, no man could please or understand God not seen. (imputed righteousness))

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. Corinthians 4:18

The perfect law of God according to the law of faith (the unseen eternal Spirit of the law ) is the work of God working in us .It quickens our souls so that we can understand him not seen and performs other works of God that he appoints to us ..

His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. Psalm 19:6-8

The "law of faith" as that not seen, the eternal performs all those works of His faith that he works in us .(not of us the temporal )

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
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...or we could say...law according to the flesh and law according to the Spirit.
 
Latour

Latour

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#39
Jun 11, 2018
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#39
garee said:
I would think that salt that is used in every sacrifice speaks more of judgment. Not so much as a preservative as more common idea.

We are the salt of the world as those who bring the letter of the law giving judgment to the word of God . like the thorn that pricked Saul side before he was converted, something to move a person to faith previously having none. Thorns are used like salt in the scriptures

Leviticus 2:13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

Again to remind us of God's judgement

Genesis 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Salt destroys completely.
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I was thinking more of this...

Mat. 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
 
G

garee

Banned
#40
Mar 28, 2016
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#40
Latour said:
I was thinking more of this...

Mat. 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
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Both ideas can work I beleive.

I would think if it loses is savour to judge according to the letter of the law, grace could not come .

In order to receive the good news, the news that mankind is born dead in his trespasses and sins without God in this present world is according to the letter of the law . What preserves is more like the grace that we savour. In that way to one we are the sweet fragrance of new life and to another the salt of judgment .
 
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