Not By Works

Another INTERESTING QUESTION, is what denomination do you go to? Since you AFRAID to answer that question, it must be a psuedo-Christian cult like Jehovah Witnesses. If you will Not answer, how about your Doctrinal Statement of Faith. Almost all Churches have them published on the Web Page such as this Statement. I had to abbreviate it, and I agree with it. Here is the Link: https://www.fba.org/main/statement-of-faith

This doctrinal statement reflects the broad, mainstream, conservative evangelical tradition which is consistent with the teachings of the Bible and which has stood the test of history and experience. We specifically affirm the following doctrinal truths:

1. The Scriptures
   
   
2. The Godhead (Trinity)
   We believe in one true God eternally existing in three distinct persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) each of Whom is fully and equally God; possesses all of the divine nature and attributes, and is totally worthy of our worship and service (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; John 1:14, John 10:30; 2 Cor. 13:14).
3. God the Father
   We believe that God the Father is the first person of the Trinity and is the eternal, unchanging all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise, all-loving, completely just and perfectly holy, sovereign Ruler and Sustainer of the universe. He is the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the Father of all true believers (Gen. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; John 1:12-13, John 5:19-21, John 17:1-5; Isa. 40:21-28, Isa. 43:10-13, Isa. 46:8-11; Rom. 8:14-16).
4. God the Son
   We believe that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity and is the only begotten eternal Son of God Who became flesh to reveal God to man, to fulfill prophecy, and to become the Savior of the lost world. In becoming man Jesus did not cease in any way to be God so that He is fully God and fully man inseparably united in one person forever. Jesus was miraculously conceived by the Holy Spirit; born of the Virgin Mary; lived a sinless life; died on the cross as the substitutionary, all-sufficient atoning sacrifice for all of the sins of all men of all time; was buried; bodily rose from the dead; physically ascended into heaven in His glorified, resurrected body; is seated at the right hand of the Father performing His ministry of intercession; will return in the air to claim His bride the church; and will come again to earth in bodily form, personally and visibly, to conclude human history and consummate God’s eternal plan by executing judgment and ushering in His Millennial Kingdom reign to be followed by the eternal state (John 1:1,14,18; John 3:16; Luke 1:30-35; Phil. 2:5-8; Col. 2:3,9; Mark 10:45; Acts 2:22-24; John 1:29; Rom. 3:25-26; Heb. 10:5-14; 1 Pet. 2:24, 1 Pet. 3:18; John 20:20; Phil. 3:20-21; Heb. 1:3; Rom. 8:34; 1 John 2:1; Acts 1:11; Heb. 9:28; 1 Thes. 4:13-18; 2 Thes. 2:7; Matt. 24:44; Rev. 19:11-21; Rev. 21-22).
5. God the Holy Spirit
   We believe that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity Who specially came into the world on the day of Pentecost to glorify Christ and to enable men to appropriate the salvation wrought by Christ. He is the primary agent for the conviction of sin and for regeneration. Simultaneously with salvation, the Holy Spirit imparts new life, baptizes the believer into the body of Christ (His church), permanently indwells the believer, and securely seals the believer unto the day of redemption. The Holy Spirit fills (directs and controls) those believers who are yielded to Him, enables believers to bear fruit, and empowers believers to live a life free from sin’s dominion. We also believe that the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to believers for the purpose of edifying the church in accordance with the teachings of scripture (1 Cor. 13:8, 1 Cor. 14:22; John 16:7-8; 1 Cor. 6:19, 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:13-14, Eph. 4:30; Gal. 5:16-17, Gal. 22-23; Rom. 8:5-13; 1 Pet. 4:10-11; Rom. 12:3-8).
6. Man
7. Satan
8. Salvation
   We believe that the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross provides the sole basis for forgiveness of sins and salvation, which is the free gift of God’s grace. Salvation is effected by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and cannot be secured by man’s works or personal merit. Salvation is only appropriated by a person placing his faith in the finished work of Christ. Repentance is a turning toward God and away from sin and is a part of but not separate from believing faith. “The Gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” and those who receive Jesus Christ by faith are born again, have their sins forgiven, become children of God, are a new creation in Christ, and “are sealed by the Holy spirit unto the day of redemption” being kept by the power of God (Eph. 1:7:13-14; John 1:12-13, John 3:1-7, John 14-16; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 1:16, Rom. 10:9-10; Eph. 2:8-10; Rom. 8:14-17, Rom. 31-39; John 10:27-29, Rom. 14:6; Acts 26:20; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).
9. The Christian Life
10. The Church

God "hooked" me Himself when i was part of this fallen world

He gets the credit for making me new and revealing the truth to me
and putting a heart in me which desires righteousness


though He did use dc to point out some of the error in my false beliefs <- sinless perfection (the belief that Jesus is only a prerequisite for salvation... but it is my own walk which ultimately saves me)


which again

i went to God to sort out with much prayer and scripture


if dc is a member of the body

i could liken him to a finger that points the truth

or a mouth which is used to speak it




i have seen many perform the wicked deed of falsely accusing my brother in Christ of justifying sin (which i also did in my error) as well as attacking my Fathers character and grace with a false gospel which gives glory to man over God

but i believe God uses dc to combat this

(as well as many of my brothers and sisters here... like TT, VCO, BillG, Joefizz, Magenta, Eternally Grateful, blueladybug, mailmandan, Penned, star, Ljs, P4T, ariel and others... sorry if i didnt add you)


but if you think this thread is a joke

maybe you shouldnt dwell in it

to me it has been a blessing
which
not only to cause me to drop my false beliefs back at Gods feet for correction

but also encouraged me...
deepened my love for Him who loved my first through casting out torment and making my love full


(is still working patience in me... i need much more of that)

and resparked the fire to dive back into the Word daily


it is anything but a joke to me

whoops couple errors


which was used not only to*


and

who loved me first*

1Corinthians2:2
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Hi benher, nobody resist's, or preaches against "Good Works", why do you keep saying that. we have gone over the subject of sanctification at length. There are three basic types of sanctification's; Positional Sanctification, this happens the moment you are born again; Practical Sanctification, on going, which is our daily walk; and Final Sanctification, no more sin.

Nobody preaches against good works, nobody does, it a false statement to say such a thing. Christian are full of good works but your wonderful works cannot save you. "Not By Works", lest any man should boast.

You have been mixing your Positional in Christ, with your Practice in Christ. Good works are evidence of salvation, they do not save you. Only the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ can save a mortal soul and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

Our position in Christ; saved by grace "Not By Works" and "Justified", the moment you are born again,

Our Practice in Christ; A pursuit of holy living and many good works, and our works are separate from our "Position in Christ."

Final Sanctification: No more sin,

Question: "What is positional sanctification?"

Answer: To sanctify means to set apart as holy, which is what happens to sinners who are saved from sin by the grace of God through the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). The three “phases” of salvation are positional sanctification, progressive sanctification, and final sanctification. At the moment of salvation, we are sanctified or set apart positionally; that is, we are saved from the ultimate penalty of sin. Then begins progressive sanctification, the process whereby we are saved from the practice and power of sin. And after this physical life is over, we will be sanctified finally; that is, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

ROOOOOOSEEEEE HOW COULD I HAVE FORGOTTEN SUCH A LOVELY, MEEK, HUMBLE WOMAN LIKE YOUUUUU?!

im so so sorry my sweet sister....

you have fought the good fight as well as if not better than anyone here


with a patience that far surpasses my own

speaking only when God places it on your heart

walking in the spirit and shining brightly as you do it

forgive me....

you should have been the first on the list sis...


i love you

Psalms 40:6-8
6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

Hebrews 10:5-10

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will
(cf. Ps. 40:6–8)
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Hebrews 11:8

Faithful Abraham
(Gen. 15:1–6; 21:1–7)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

John 17:17-18
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

The VAST MAJORITY of these types of Churches would believe in the Eternal Security in CHRIST. The reason that it is impossible to give you an exact total, is because the Church Board of Elders would agree on the exact wording of the Doctrinal Statement of Faith. Therefore, one would have to check every single Doctrinal Statement in the world, to come up with that figure. So here is a partial List, to give you an idea of what denominations believe you cannot LOSE your Salvation, once you have it.

EVENGELICALS

SOUTHERN BAPTISTS

OTHER BAPTISTS DENOMINATIONS

LUTHERANS

Many of the Independent Churches

BIBLE Churches

Community Churches

Berean Churches

Grace Brethren Churches

Plymouth Brethren Churches

Most Pentecostal Churches

Most Messianic Churches

Calvary Chapel

Wesleyan Churches

• Anglican/Episcopal - "We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine..." 39 Articles Anglican Communion
• Assembly of God - "Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ. By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, being justified by grace through faith, man becomes an heir of God, according to the hope of eternal life." AG.org
• Baptist - "Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer ... There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord." SBC
• Lutheran - "Faith in Christ is the only way for men to obtain personal reconciliation with God, that is, forgiveness of sins ..." LCMS
• Methodist - "We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith, only..." UMC
• Presbyterian - "Presbyterians believe God has offered us salvation because of God's loving nature. It is not a right or a privilege to be earned by being "good enough," ... we are all saved solely by the grace of God ...Out of the greatest possible love and compassion God reached out to us and redeemed us through Jesus Christ, the only one who was ever without sin. Through Jesus' death and resurrection God triumphed over sin." PCUSA

Now that is NOT ALL, (I am tired of searching), but it should be enough VALIDATE that Most of the Mainline Churches, DO BELIEVE IN THE ETERNAL SECURITY that CHRIST alone PROVIDED through GRACE through faith.

Works are, "going to get in the way of my salvation?" Only you and your proud works would ever think such a thing.

Show me "One Christian" who would ever say, "Works", is going to get in the way of salavtion?" When you continue on and on and on about your "good works" it makes you look like your gospel is "man centered" rather than, "Christ Centered" like the Apostle Paul said; the gospel is all about Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Your gospel has gone the way of "Cain", My good works are what will save me, just like Cain.

1Corinthians2:2
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1Corinthians3:7
So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

Hi NoName, what happen to Rose, please let us know.....

So love is produced in us after salvation is given, because God's love was poured in our hearts the moment the Holy Spirit came into our hearts.

In my mind love = good works (charity).
In my mind love = obedience to the commands of Jesus.

So with a clear conscience I can say that a person that has not love, has not been saved, therefore they cannot lose what they have not been given. Is that right?

Having said that, there will be a great many Christians who will wake up on that dreadful day and find out that they were never saved in the first place and will find themselves in hell. Is that right?

well if youre asking why she is such a sweetheart... rose was made new by God and she seemed to hit the ground running even as a sappling


i cant speak for her as to what has been going on in her life or why she has not been able to post as much

but i know at the very least she is well in the lord

and with us in spirit


(rose... if you see this when you have time, please know your brothers and sisters here love you and are worried about you and wish you well)



maybe we can all remember her in our prayers guys?

people say that OSAS is false because they worry about people becoming complacent and not taking God seriously

however, people believe that OSAS is true, because people want to avoid legalism, and want to obey God because of love, not because of some ulterior-motivated consequence to motivate seriousness, in the sense that OSAS is believed to be false due to the fact that people "lean on their own understanding" which disobeys Proverbs 3:5-6

I wonder what's the true focal point of the debate would be

IT IS PART OF LOVING GOD and LOVING THE BRETHREN, that we DO AFTER WE ARE SAVED.
IT IS NOT PART OF SALVATION AT ALL. THAT HAPPENS THE FIRST MOMENT WE BELIEVE. A FREE GIFT OF GOD.

It makes me WONDER if you ever really read what I wrote?

LAST TIME, and you will go on the IGNORE LIST TOO. You appear you are only ADDICTED to arguing, and just want to keep it going.

Titus 1:2 (NLT2)
2 This truth gives them confidence that they have eternal life, which God—who does not lie—promised them before the world began.

John 10:26-28 (NLT2)
26 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,

Titus 3:4-8 (NLT2)
4 But—“When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love,
5 he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.
6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.
7 Because of his grace he declared us righteous and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life.”
8 This is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to insist on these teachings so that all who trust in God will devote themselves to doing good. These teachings are good and beneficial for everyone.

Ephesians 2:4-5 (NLT2)
4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NLT2)
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

John 5:24 (NLT2)
24 “I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

John 6:47 (NLT2)
47 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.


SALVATION HAPPENED THE MOMENT WE FIRST BELIEVED. IT INVOLVES HAVING THE HOLY SPIRIT BRINGING CONVICTION FOR ALL OF OUR UTTERLY SINFUL LIFESTYLE, HAVING OUR HUMAN SPIRIT BIRTHED INTO ETERNAL LIFE, HAVING GOD'S LOVE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS, AND HAVING THE HOLY SPIRIT TAKE UP PERMANENT RESIDENCE IN OUR HEARTS. HE TEACHES US THE PROPER WAY TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURES, TEACHES US TO LOVE GOD AND LOVE THE BRETHREN AND OUR NEIGHBORS, AND IS OUR COMFORTER. SANCTIFICATION IS PART OF LOVE, NOT PART OF SALVATION. SANCTIFICATION IS A LIFELONG PROCESS OF CONFORMING OUR BODIES TO BE LIKE CHRIST, AND IT WILL NOT BE COMPLETE UNTIL WE GET OUR GLORIFIED BODIES IN THE RESURRECTION. YOU FORGET THE PRIMARY PURPOSE FOR SANCTIFICATION, YOUR LIFESTYLE IS THE ONLY BIBLE SOME PEOPLE WILL EVER SEE.

I have covered this over and over again, so go back and look at what I have said about SANCTIFICATION, I AM FINISHED.

AGREE TO DISAGREE IF YOU WANT. BUT FOR ME, I HAVE TO KICK THE DUST FROM MY FEET, FOR THOSE WHO WILL NOT LISTEN.
SO IN 24 HOURS YOU WILL GO ON MY IGNORE LIST.

I suppose has to clarify love and how it relates to salvation.

Afterall Peter did not tell Jesus he "Agaped him" when asked twice.
Third time when Jesus asks he says "Do you Phileo me?

Peter gets upset and says "Yes I Phileo you"

Then Jesus says "Go feed my sheep"

People with no faith in Jesus exhibit love, agape love but it doesn't save them.
They are obedient to true agape love but it doesn't save them.
True agape love that seeks nothing in return.

I read a story on our national news website today.
It was of a father and family in Canada.
He went for a walk with his kids.
A bear suddenly came out of the blue and went after his son.
He stepped in the way, pushed his son towards his daughters and told them to run.
He was mauled to death.

That's agape love, that is the ultimate work, the ultimate sacrifice.

Peter went from Phileo love to agape love. He died for Jesus.

Assuming the man who died for his son was not a believer then is he saved?
If not why not?

The "Gospel" is called, "Good News" for a reason, even a child can understand the "Gospel." And then people like benhur come around boasting about their, works, works, works, and the "Gospel" gets lost and he muddies up the pure water of the gospel, "saved by grace, not by works, lest anyone should boast.

All of this time gone by and you still cannot understand God's free gift, what a pity.

Christians are here to advance the "Great Commission" throughout the world; and then people like benhur come here to a beautiful International Christian forum to muddy up the clear pure waters of the gospel, what a pity.

True Gospel: "by grace you have been, (past tenths), saved." We are saved, "unto good works"
not by them.

Ephesians2:8
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Then I stand corrected. Good, you do not believe that good works gets in the way of salvation. Good.

I do understand that good works done to gain salvation is going to get in the way of salvation. I do understand that and therefore my gospel is not going the way of "Cain". Please make a note of that and do not quote me as believing in that doctrine. I do not think that my good works will save me.

I do believe that a lack of good works/love will damn me. You see, good works is one important aspect of love and without the full and complete love of Jesus in you, you will not be saved, no matter how much you believe you have been saved.

wait a second




does ben think paul is lying?
or does he believe God forgot to whisper in pauls ear that being fully dipped in water is also needed according to bens beliefs?

as well as the fact by bens belief one has to choose to continue to believe after these works are done in order to remain saved.....



can you say someone "will" be saved if it is dependant on their actions following?

if you say someone will be saved (from a just punishment) if they do x y and z

then you can know you are saved (from a just punishment)

but then you have to suffer that just punishment
....


uhhhh
when were you saved?

People who disagree with OSAS do not worry about people becoming complacent, they accuse people of being complacent and using it as excuse to sin.

The reverse is that those against works save reject it because they feel that they go to the same extreme as those who reject OSAS.

Anti OSAS come up with things like "it's ok to murder and be saved" (seen that posted many times)
Anti OSAS also say things like "You must be bapised to be saved, confess every sin to be saved, forgive every sin against you before you die in order to be saved.

OSAS always saved troopers have no issue with good works following genuine saving placed faith in Jesus. Its just that the works done do not save us.

Saved by faith unto good works.

Amen.

oh really, if anti-OSAS people have any ounce of heart at all, they should see that such is false accusations and need to repent from their self-righteousness

if people's heart are Christ-like enough, they should have sympathy to the point where they would want to see even pedophiles redeemed and saved, no matter how hypothetically bad the sinner may be, in the sense that people desire the sense of innocence that feels good, and people have been tainted by sin, got lost in their own ways and, ... God can fix big problems like this. Love the sinner but hate the sin, and practice heart for sinners ...