Not By Works

[shrume]

IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO DO TO BE SAVED.

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THOSE HE SAVED, THE PROOF IS IN THE CHANGE OF THEIR BORN AGAIN HUMAN SPIRIT, THAT LOVES TO DO WHAT PLEASES OUR LORD.

You absolutely do have to do something to be saved. You have to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

God saves people who choose to believe. He does not save them first.

 

[BillG]

What are some of the faith alone denominations and what are some of the works-salvationist denominations?

Those in different corners of the boxing ring.

 

[benhur]

Hi VCO, the self-righteous, "I can save myself group", who also have no "eternal security", (no wonder yes), are always putting there "wonderful works" out in front of what Jesus Christ has already done for us. They are so puffed up its a wonder how they make it through their front door when they get home.

"Salvation is of the Lord", Jonah's Prayer after God saves him.; Jonah2:9

We have a disagreement about what we must do to be saved. That should not lead to this type of post. We are all brothers in Jesus Christ. We have all been saved. There is not 2 Christians that live, that believe 100% the same as you or me. So be humble and be a good Christian. Who knows, you just might sway someone to believe 100% of what you believe.

 

[TruthTalk]

You absolutely do have to do something to be saved. You have to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

God saves people who choose to believe. He does not save them first.

We were dead in our trespasses and sin's, how can a dead man confess anything. From Faith to Faith salvation is all of God, He quicken our spirit. It was because of God's "mercy" that we are "born again", "Not By Works", least any man should boast.

Ephesians2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

 

[shrume]

Salvation is not a kidnapping.

It is an invitation that we must choose to accept.

 

[Seohce]

YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE your emphases is ON THE WRONG ADVERB.

It is NOT Obey to be SAVED.

IT IS SALVATION produces a change in the HEART (Born Again Human Spirit), who WILL WILLINGLY WANT TO OBEY.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO DO TO BE SAVED.

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THOSE HE SAVED, THE PROOF IS IN THE CHANGE OF THEIR BORN AGAIN HUMAN SPIRIT, THAT LOVES TO DO WHAT PLEASES OUR LORD.

IF YOU REALLY LOVE TO DO WHAT PLEASES THE LORD THEN PLEASE PROVE IT BY DOING WHAT JESUS TEACHES AND COMMANDS IN THE FF:


Matthew 19:16-21 The Rich Young Man Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

THIS APPLIES APPLIES TO ALL "OSASERS AND ALONERS" WHO LOVES TO DO WHAT PLEASES THE LORD. I HOPE YOU CAN SHOW US SOME PROOF.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

"GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED"

Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.

 

[shrume]

We were dead in our trespasses and sin's, how can a dead man confess anything.

Calvinists overstate the fallen nature of man. Unsaved people can hear the gospel and decide to believe it. When they do, they become saved.

From Faith to Faith God quicken our spirit. It was because of God's "mercy" that we are "born again", "Not By Works", least any man should boast.

Ephesians2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;​

​

God quickened us when we chose to believe.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

What are some of the faith alone denominations and what are some of the works-salvationist denominations?

i dont know about "faith alone" denominations

but much of mans religons are works salvation


mormonism
JWs
muslims
catholics
the hyper charasmatics
sinless perfectionists
hebrew roots / jews

etc.....

 

[TruthTalk]

We have a disagreement about what we must do to be saved. That should not lead to this type of post. We are all brothers in Jesus Christ. We have all been saved. There is not 2 Christians that live, that believe 100% the same as you or me. So be humble and be a good Christian. Who knows, you just might sway someone to believe 100% of what you believe.

Wrong not all who name the name of Jesus are brothers in Christ.

 

[BillG]

We have a disagreement about what we must do to be saved. That should not lead to this type of post. We are all brothers in Jesus Christ. We have all been saved. There is not 2 Christians that live, that believe 100% the same as you or me. So be humble and be a good Christian. Who knows, you just might sway someone to believe 100% of what you believe.

I think you will find that there are more then 2 Christians who agree, in fact millions over the years. And in fact the reverse, those who disagree.

Maybe the following applies

1 Corinthians 3:9-15
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

At the end of the day Jesus knows all.
He will judge according to what he knows about us and what is in our hearts.

To me it's our heart that he will judge us on.

 

[theanointedsinner]

much learning wearies the soul

 

[dcontroversal]

What are some of the faith alone denominations and what are some of the works-salvationist denominations?

What are some of the faith alone denominations and what are some of the works-salvationist denominations?

Most so called Christian Denominations push works in some form or fashion....blows my mind how they cannot see the truth of what Jesus states...the PLENTEOUS in NUMBER (MANY) that come before his throne expecting to enter the kingdom....

a. They claim to know him<--Just like the bolded above
b. They believe their right to enter is based upon the wonderful works they have done is HIS NAME <--just like the bolded above
c. The believe their prophetic utterances in his name earned the right to enter <--JUST like MANY of the bolded above
d. They believe their ability to cast out demons in his name earned the right to enter <--JUST like MANY of the bolded above

IT is the minority that teaches saved by grace through faith eternally with a 100% consistent stance that points ALL GLORY to CHRIST for his work, power, promises, faith etc.......

it is clear....NOT BY works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his MERCY (UNDESERVED) HAS HE SAVED US <--PAST TENSE

Those who say works are required or necessary might as well get a pair of scissors and cut about 1000 verses out of their bibles...including the one I just quoted.

 

[oldethennew]

right from the beginning, this 'thread' was such a joke!!!
and just 'look' how the 'hook' took!!!

has Yeshua used 'dc' to 'hook' you-all???

or, has He used dc to awaken you to the reality of this 'fallen-world'???

 

[OstrichSmiling]

The Berean Call THE WORKS-SALVATION DELUSION
June 1, 2010
McMahon, T.A.
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians:2:21


Religious Tolerance
Christian concepts of salvation:
An introduction to ancient & modern beliefs
Pauline Christians formed the movement that later became the Roman Catholic church. In the first and second centuries CE, the movement emphasized the necessity of good works and baptism to attain salvation, forgiveness of sins, and heaven. For example:

Justin Martyr (110 - 165) was a Christian philosopher who lived from 110 to 165 CE. He wrote that "if men by their works show themselves worthy of His design, they are deemed worthy of reigning in company with Him."

The Nicene Creed was written and approved by 318 leaders of the early Catholic church at the First Ecumenical Council at Nicea, in 325 CE. It linked salvation to baptism: "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

 

[theanointedsinner]

oldethennew, you mind as well start a new book title "not by works, but by play"

if you think this thread is such a joke to you

 

[VCO]

You absolutely do have to do something to be saved. You have to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

God saves people who choose to believe. He does not save them first.

Shrume, I know you are Bright, but you did not even think this thru.

How many of your sins were FUTURE, when HE TOOK THOSE SINS ON THE CROSS and PAID FOR THEM IN FULL?


1 John 2:1-2 (GW)
1 My dear children, I'm writing this to you so that you will not sin. Yet, if anyone does sin, we have Jesus Christ, who has God's full approval. He speaks on our behalf when we come into the presence of the Father.
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.


THAT'S RIGHT, the only SIN that anyone goes to Hades/Hell for is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The only unforgivable SIN there is. The Holy Spirit works on our hearts to Get Us To Believe, and when somebody rejects what the Holy Spirit is trying to get us to believe about CHRIST, that is the ONLY SIN THAT IS UNFORGIVABLE.

Matthew 12:31-32 (HCSB)
31 Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.


So what about Confession in 1 John 1:9? That is part of the Born Again new Nature of the Human Spirit. IT IS SOME THING WE WILL DO, AFTER WE ARE SAVED, BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM.


Romans 9:31-32 (HCSB)
31 But Israel, pursuing the law for righteousness, has not achieved ⌊the righteousness⌋ of the law.
32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 5:9 (HCSB)
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (HCSB)
20 for you were bought at a price {the Bride price was a Holy Blood Sacrifice}. Therefore glorify God in your body.

Hebrews 9:22 (HCSB)
22 According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

1 Peter 1:19 (HCSB)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.

Revelation 1:5 (HCSB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by His blood,

Romans 8:27-30 (HCSB)
27 And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

2 Timothy 1:7-9 (NJB)
7 God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but the Spirit of power and love and self-control.
8 So you are never to be ashamed of witnessing to our Lord, or ashamed of me for being his prisoner; but share in my hardships for the sake of the gospel, relying on the power of God
9 who has saved us and called us to be holy—not because of anything we ourselves had done but for his own purpose and by his own grace. This grace had already been granted to us, in Christ Jesus, before the beginning of time,


That is Check Mate.

Now the verse Rom. 10:9-10, that is the WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US, and it is only a TRUE CONFESSION, if you proclaim what HE HAS DONE IN YOUR HEART. THEREFORE BELIEVING is a WORK of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Otherwise it is only a Profession.

You forget this verse:

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.


The "AFTER YOU ARE SEALED" is another work of the HOLY SPIRIT. Nothing of those two things comes from my WORK, it is what the Holy Spirit does in our hearts, along with many other things.

 

[shrume]

Shrume, I know you are Bright, but you did not even think this thru.

I have thought it through completely, VCO.

How many of your sins were FUTURE, when HE TOOK THOSE SINS ON THE CROSS and PAID FOR THEM IN FULL?

A lot of them, but that is not relevant. It has nothing to do with the fact that a person has to choose to believe the gospel.

1 John 2:1-2 (GW)
1 My dear children, I'm writing this to you so that you will not sin. Yet, if anyone does sin, we have Jesus Christ, who has God's full approval. He speaks on our behalf when we come into the presence of the Father.
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Amen!

THAT'S RIGHT, the only SIN that anyone goes to Hades/Hell for is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The only unforgivable SIN there is. The Holy Spirit works on our hearts to Get Us To Believe, and when somebody rejects what the Holy Spirit is trying to get us to believe about CHRIST, that is the ONLY SIN THAT IS UNFORGIVABLE.

Matthew 12:31-32 (HCSB)
31 Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

God wants EVERYONE to believe, and become saved (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that ANY should perish (2 Pet 3:9).

But a person has to choose to believe.

So what about Confession in 1 John 1:9? That is part of the Born Again new Nature of the Human Spirit. IT IS SOME THING WE WILL DO, AFTER WE ARE SAVED, BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM.

Yes, 1 John 1:9 is for saved Christians.

Romans 9:31-32 (HCSB)
31 But Israel, pursuing the law for righteousness, has not achieved ⌊the righteousness⌋ of the law.
32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 5:9 (HCSB)
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (HCSB)
20 for you were bought at a price {the Bride price was a Holy Blood Sacrifice}. Therefore glorify God in your body.

Hebrews 9:22 (HCSB)
22 According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

1 Peter 1:19 (HCSB)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.

Revelation 1:5 (HCSB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by His blood,

Romans 8:27-30 (HCSB)
27 And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

2 Timothy 1:7-9 (NJB)
7 God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but the Spirit of power and love and self-control.
8 So you are never to be ashamed of witnessing to our Lord, or ashamed of me for being his prisoner; but share in my hardships for the sake of the gospel, relying on the power of God
9 who has saved us and called us to be holy—not because of anything we ourselves had done but for his own purpose and by his own grace. This grace had already been granted to us, in Christ Jesus, before the beginning of time,

That is Check Mate.

Those are all wonderful scripture, VCO. But not a single one of them say that God saves people first before they decide to believe.

Now the verse Rom. 10:9-10, that is the WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US, and it is only a TRUE CONFESSION, if you proclaim what HE HAS DONE IN YOUR HEART. THEREFORE BELIEVING is a WORK of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Otherwise it is only a Profession.

Rom 10:9-10 is not an afterthought, or a result of already being saved. It is something people must do in order to become saved, in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You forget this verse:

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

If you could only see the irony, VCO...

I am aware that you firmly deny the existence and validity of speaking in tongues. And yet, that is exactly what 1 Cor 12:3 is talking about.

The "AFTER YOU ARE SEALED" is another work of the HOLY SPIRIT. Nothing of those two things comes from my WORK, it is what the Holy Spirit does in our hearts, along with many other things.

Read the verse again:

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We did not have the Holy Spirit before we believed the gospel.

God saves people who choose to believe. He does not save people first.

 

[theanointedsinner]

for those who are saved, any idea how to allow God to love you, and rest in his love?

 

[dcontroversal]

Shrume, I know you are Bright, but you did not even think this thru.

How many of your sins were FUTURE, when HE TOOK THOSE SINS ON THE CROSS and PAID FOR THEM IN FULL?


1 John 2:1-2 (GW)
1 My dear children, I'm writing this to you so that you will not sin. Yet, if anyone does sin, we have Jesus Christ, who has God's full approval. He speaks on our behalf when we come into the presence of the Father.
2 He is the payment for our sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.


THAT'S RIGHT, the only SIN that anyone goes to Hades/Hell for is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The only unforgivable SIN there is. The Holy Spirit works on our hearts to Get Us To Believe, and when somebody rejects what the Holy Spirit is trying to get us to believe about CHRIST, that is the ONLY SIN THAT IS UNFORGIVABLE.

Matthew 12:31-32 (HCSB)
31 Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.


So what about Confession in 1 John 1:9? That is part of the Born Again new Nature of the Human Spirit. IT IS SOME THING WE WILL DO, AFTER WE ARE SAVED, BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM.


Romans 9:31-32 (HCSB)
31 But Israel, pursuing the law for righteousness, has not achieved ⌊the righteousness⌋ of the law.
32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 5:9 (HCSB)
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (HCSB)
20 for you were bought at a price {the Bride price was a Holy Blood Sacrifice}. Therefore glorify God in your body.

Hebrews 9:22 (HCSB)
22 According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

1 Peter 1:19 (HCSB)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.

Revelation 1:5 (HCSB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by His blood,

Romans 8:27-30 (HCSB)
27 And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

2 Timothy 1:7-9 (NJB)
7 God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but the Spirit of power and love and self-control.
8 So you are never to be ashamed of witnessing to our Lord, or ashamed of me for being his prisoner; but share in my hardships for the sake of the gospel, relying on the power of God
9 who has saved us and called us to be holy—not because of anything we ourselves had done but for his own purpose and by his own grace. This grace had already been granted to us, in Christ Jesus, before the beginning of time,


That is Check Mate.

Now the verse Rom. 10:9-10, that is the WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US, and it is only a TRUE CONFESSION, if you proclaim what HE HAS DONE IN YOUR HEART. THEREFORE BELIEVING is a WORK of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Otherwise it is only a Profession.

You forget this verse:

1 Corinthians 12:3 (HCSB)
3 Therefore I am informing you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.


The "AFTER YOU ARE SEALED" is another work of the HOLY SPIRIT. Nothing of those two things comes from my WORK, it is what the Holy Spirit does in our hearts, along with many other things.

The simple truth written to BELIEVERS, which is rejected, denied or flat refused....

Where sin abounds, GRACE abounds the MORE. <----GRACE is preemptive in a believer....!!!

 

[shrume]

The simple truth written to BELIEVERS, which is rejected, denied or flat refused....

Where sin abounds, GRACE abounds the MORE. <----GRACE is preemptive in a believer....!!!

I'm not clear on what you are saying, dcon.

Do you believe as VCO, that God saves people before they believe, or do you believe people have to believe before they receive the promise of salvation?