The cultic origins of Annihilationism

NO the context with the full chapter do not support that idea.

If there were eternal life for humans that is in themselves, why would God need to raise ANY of them from the dead? They would already be alive and so wouldn't NEED to be raised from the dead.

And, in fact, it says we are raised imperishable. Sown perishable but raised imperishable.

If there were eternal life for humans that is in themselves, why would God need to raise ANY of them from the dead? They would already be alive and so wouldn't NEED to be raised from the dead.

I disagree.

Why say raised imperishable, raised changed in that way, this mortal putting on immortal - when we were already immortal from birth?

Jesus used these discriptive terms about hell's eternal state for man:

And notice here the many references to hell being an eternal state:

• everlasting fire Matt 18:8
• everlasting punishment Matt 25:26
• eternal condemnation Mark 3:29
• the fire that shall never be quenched Mark 9:43-48
• their worm does not die " "
• unquenchable fire " "

and other Gospels were Jesus is speaking about hell and man going there.

Luke 12:5
John 5:29
John 15:6

satan seems to be an eternal being? it does not specifically say about all other that have a part in the "lake of Fire" are tortured forever?

The scriptures were given to you. The context of the lake of fire is eternal, I looked up the word forever in the Greek and it means forever. In addition, you make a big presumption when you said :


“And, it doesn't fit with humans, who don't have eternity in them (except by the new birth),”



There is life and there is eternal which speaks of the reward of the Righteous. The unrighteous have eternal but not in the context of reward from God.

If there is no eternity for humans who are not saved then why did they have to be raised from the dead to be judged ? The Great White Throne Judgment is very clear who is there.

Rev 20:11-15 reads like this :



11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Bible is very clear , Jesus was very clear .
Hell is an enternal place

context if you die to day will you not be resurrected when Jesus comes ? you have enternal life now ?

that is human reasoning not contextually the word of God concerning the eternal state of hell. Rev 20 and Jesus was very clear . I will post them again for you.

No, I didn't mean that YOU bother me. You are a help a lot of the time, even though we don't agree on almost everything there is.

It bothers me to see two sides pit verses against each other and to see the inconsistencies on both sides and to watch a rerun of the same show over and over with neither side addressing their own inconsistencies.

I think that pennEd is the only one in here with the capability (at present, not forever!) of tracking with me even if he doesn't agree with me. That's not to say anyone is stupid. It's just to say that I think penned, at present, is the only one who can see the inconsistencies on BOTH sides. I could be wrong on that, but ?I think he sees it.

you can

Now on this issue, I think the lost will suffer eternally.

context if you die to day will you not be resurrected when Jesus comes ?

you have enternal life now ?

In Christ . So if the word of God says they both small and great will be judged the dead which will syand before Christ then that is what will happen.

I'm not tracking you here...
Yes, I will be resurrected when Jesus comes. I was sown in the ground perishable. I will be raised imperishable.
And unbelievers are also sown in the ground perishable. They also will be resurrected. But not to eternal life but rather to the second death.

All men who are resurrected from the dead are not immediately made imperishable. Some of them die a second death.

Thank you for your kind words. I lead a Bible study, and the 1st words I usually say are from a wonderful Pastor I've followed for a long time via internet.

Acts 17: " Don't believe anything Ed tells you, but search the Scriptures daily to see if he is speaking truth to word" ( Obvious paraphrase)!

Now on this issue, I think the lost will suffer eternally. I don't like it, and hope I'm wrong, but it seems pretty clear to me.

The outer darkness is kind of tricky. I think most commentators believe that it is another title, and perhaps descriptive aspect, of hell. That seems the most likely possibility. But hey, maybe not.

I say this is not a vital issue, because by and large it's Christians that debate this. The lost don't even contemplate hell. I think a lot of the warnings about hell and eternal suffering is there to spur US on to spread the spectacular news of the Gospel.

So I wouldn't start a conversation with an unsaved person about hell. I would tell them what Jesus Christ has done for me, and the Gospel.

But..... If they ask me..... I'd tell them you don't wanna go there and suffer eternally!

you are allegorizing the scriptures

No that is what Vines says. No other Lexicon has that. None!

From Thayers on that word:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639

From the BDAG which happens to be the go to when learning Ancient Greek:

ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
to cause or experience destruction
act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
γ. without obj. J 10:10.

The most peered recognized Lexicon states the the word means eternal destuction; eternal death. The funny thing is Vines states that the Middle voice is the prerequisite for what you state and he shares but the word in question in Matthew 10:28 is in the active voice.

Here is Vines entry:
<A-1,Verb,622,apollumi>
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luk 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luk 15:4,6, etc.; the lost son, Luk 15:24; of the perishing of food, Joh 6:27; of gold, 1Pe 1:7. So of persons, Mat 2:13, "destroy;" Mat 8:25, "perish;" Mat 22:7; Mat 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Mat 10:28; Luk 13:3,5; Joh 3:16 (Joh 3:15 in some mss.); Joh 10:28; Joh 17:12; Rom 2:12; 1Co 15:18; 2Co 2:15, "are perishing;" 2Co 4:3; 2Th 2:10; Jam 4:12; 2Pe 3:9. Cp. B, II, No. 1. See DIE, LOSE, MARRED, PERISH.

Vines starts his entry with the standard definition apollumi. And that standard definition agrees with the most peered recognized Lexicon; the BDAG. That the word means destroy utterly; hence eternal destruction as the BDAG puts it.

Me thinks Vines needs to be doing some editing.




My friend Apollumi is a verb not an adjective. Please see Thayer's entry posted above.

Yes. When Christ returns (whether you think it happens at the rapture or the first resurrection), that is when the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead. Dead Christians are dead, and living Christians are still mortal. Both remain in their current state until Christ returns.


No. We have the promise of everlasting life.


Yes, it will happen. Everyone who has died will be resurrected and stand before Christ. When dead Christians are raised from the dead, they will be raised immortal, with new bodies. Living Christians will be changed (become immortal). That will precede the "second" resurrection and white throne judgment. Most of those raised at the second resurrection will not be saved, and will be sentenced to the second death, which will be permanent. They will not be made immortal.