Woman can't teach in the congregation

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#81
whosoever is given a prophesy or a word, they make it known and if they don't, the stones will do that work....

In a church setting, there's no marriage because anyone in the congregation could prophesy or share a word - but Paul was talking with respect to wives and husbands in the church settings.
"Women should remain silent in the churches.

They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home;

for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

1 Cor 14:34

It seems to me that Paul is talking quite generally. I cannot imagine a situation with a female preacher that is consistent with these verses...

Even questions they should ask at home, directed to their own men (father or husband, brother etc), not at a church.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#82
"Women should remain silent in the churches.

They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home;

for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

1 Cor 14:34

It seems to me that Paul is talking quite generally. I cannot imagine a situation with a female preacher that is consistent with these verses...

Even questions they should ask at home, directed to their own men (father or husband, brother etc), not at a church.
You still don't get the context in which Paul is speaking. It is about authority and submission to authority as set by God. In matters kingdom of God, there's no authority, those that are appointed are the least in this kingdom. If a woman receives a command/a prophesy/ a teaching from God- we men must follow not because we submit to that woman but we submit to God because it is a word from God and not from the woman.
When Paul speaks of women speaking in the church, he has the husband and wives kind of relationship within the congregation. If a woman teaches (in her own words/command/understanding) in a manner that would make even her husband to submit, then it would offset the kind of authority that God set.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#83
You still don't get the context in which Paul is speaking. It is about authority and submission to authority as set by God. In matters kingdom of God, there's no authority, those that are appointed are the least in this kingdom. If a woman receives a command/a prophesy/ a teaching from God- we men must follow not because we submit to that woman but we submit to God because it is a word from God and not from the woman.
When Paul speaks of women speaking in the church, he has the husband and wives kind of relationship within the congregation. If a woman teaches (in her own words/command/understanding) in a manner that would make even her husband to submit, then it would offset the kind of authority that God set.
Paul clearly said that elders and bishops must be men. How is this possible in the context you postulate?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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932
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#84
Paul clearly said that elders and bishops must be men. How is this possible in the context you postulate?
That's exactly the point, Bishops and elders would create rules on their own accord that the congregation must submit to for the good of the church. In the context of husbands and wives within the church, how would a woman bishop create rules that the husband submits to? this is what would offset God's order.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#87
Paul clearly said that elders and bishops must be men. How is this possible in the context you postulate?
I don't see that. The only "male-only" comment Paul makes is "husband of one wife". The rest is gender-neutral language. As marriage is one man and one woman, Paul is emphasizing the need for fidelity to a single spouse. A woman could not, in that understanding, have a wife, nor could a man have a husband.

The larger context also contains instructions regarding female elders/deacons. Some people believe it is addressing "their wives" but that is not necessarily supported by the text. It is just as legitimate to translate it as "the women".
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,614
13,863
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#88
You still don't get the context in which Paul is speaking. It is about authority and submission to authority as set by God. In matters kingdom of God, there's no authority, those that are appointed are the least in this kingdom. If a woman receives a command/a prophesy/ a teaching from God- we men must follow not because we submit to that woman but we submit to God because it is a word from God and not from the woman.
When Paul speaks of women speaking in the church, he has the husband and wives kind of relationship within the congregation. If a woman teaches (in her own words/command/understanding) in a manner that would make even her husband to submit, then it would offset the kind of authority that God set.
You seem to be drawing on 1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet". The word "authority" is not in the Greek, so your premise is flawed.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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#89
You seem to be drawing on 1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet". The word "authority" is not in the Greek, so your premise is flawed.
So why do you think sin and therefore death was on account of Adam instead of Eve?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#90
So why do you think sin and therefore death was on account of Adam instead of Eve?
Because God said it was. Although He doesn't clearly explain why, there are clues in Scripture. The reference to Adam and Eve in 1 Timothy is most likely refuting the false teaching that Eve was created first and had secret knowledge. Paul refutes it by saying that Eve was deceived (rather than knowledgeable).
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#91

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#93
I don't see that. The only "male-only" comment Paul makes is "husband of one wife". The rest is gender-neutral language. As marriage is one man and one woman, Paul is emphasizing the need for fidelity to a single spouse. A woman could not, in that understanding, have a wife, nor could a man have a husband.

The larger context also contains instructions regarding female elders/deacons. Some people believe it is addressing "their wives" but that is not necessarily supported by the text. It is just as legitimate to translate it as "the women".
You do not see what? If bishop or elder has to be a man of one wife, he can hardly be a woman...
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#94
You do not see what? If bishop or elder has to be a man of one wife, he can hardly be a woman...
It's a matter of interpretation. You seem to interpret it as a dogmatic statement. I interpret it as an inherently-specific statement; that is, for men who are being considered for eldership, if they are married, it must be to a single woman only. I simply don't read that as "elders must be married males only".

On a related note, some people do interpret that as "married men only". That is actually inconsistent with other teachings from Paul, as he recommended singleness for believers so that they could serve the Lord without marital distraction.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#95
Exactly. That odd statement is what set me on the track where I found that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 may be an interpolation, which creates too much doubt to be dogmatic about it.
Yes, I think it is almost the first reaction a lot of us have to it - we say, wait, this doesn't sound like paul to me, and why is he seeming to preach the law here, when he is completely against another gospel??
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#96
It's a matter of interpretation. You seem to interpret it as a dogmatic statement. I interpret it as an inherently-specific statement; that is, for men who are being considered for eldership, if they are married, it must be to a single woman only. I simply don't read that as "elders must be married males only".

On a related note, some people do interpret that as "married men only". That is actually inconsistent with other teachings from Paul, as he recommended singleness for believers so that they could serve the Lord without marital distraction.
I have read the part about bishops and elders again, can you tell me where specifically you see the possibility that its gender neutral?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#97
Have you seen the video of Benny Hinn's wife talking about the holy ghost enema? Now she's definitely someone who shouldn't be speaking in church.
No, I haven't heard his wife speak, thank God...
But I once saw Hinn smacking people on the forehead and they would be "slain." So he did it to one woman and because she was holding her husbands hand, he went down too. Hinn instructed his guy to "pick that man up! I didn't touch him! So they picked the man up, but the couple was still holding hands so then the woman came up too, apparently being rudely awoken from her having been slain. So he smacked her forehead again and they both fell down again. But Hinn once more said: I DIDN"T TOUCH HIM! PICK! HIM! UP!! So up they both come again. and then it happened AGAIN! I just began laughing hysterically and had to go to the powder room. By the time I got back he had moved onto others so I didn't see Hinns final decision but as the camera panned out, they were both laying there still holding hands.

When I went to the Christian site I used to be on and told the story, they banned me! But I wasn't holding hands with anyone, so I was the only one who got banned. :LOL:
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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#98
Because God said it was. Although He doesn't clearly explain why, there are clues in Scripture. The reference to Adam and Eve in 1 Timothy is most likely refuting the false teaching that Eve was created first and had secret knowledge. Paul refutes it by saying that Eve was deceived (rather than knowledgeable).
1 Tim 2:
11A womana should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;b she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But womenc will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Paul isn't talking about order of creation but about authority/dominion. And i doubt there's any group that claimed Eve was created first when old testament scriptures says the opposite. Paul says even though Eve was deceived and sinned first, the sin was put on the account of her husband because of the dominion/authority.
If we see it this way, then even us who have sinned would believe the atonement work by Christ because if we submit to Him, our sins are put on His account and are all paid. If we don't see it that way, we can't recognize Christ as having authority/dominion over us as our husband. This is the essence of salvation that was set long ago in the garden of Eden.
It is about authority and nothing else. Through authority sin affects everything and everyone in the world and through authority authority sin is defeated.

Paul is always talking about the spiritual authority and we must be aware of it and not represent his context. This is a clear correlation:

Eph 5:
22Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#99
1 Tim 2:
11A womana should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;b she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But womenc will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Paul isn't talking about order of creation but about authority/dominion. And i doubt there's any group that claimed Eve was created first when old testament scriptures says the opposite. Paul says even though Eve was deceived and sinned first, the sin was put on the account of her husband because of the dominion/authority.
If we see it this way, then even us who have sinned would believe the atonement work by Christ because if we submit to Him, our sins are put on His account and are all paid. If we don't see it that way, we can't recognize Christ as having authority/dominion over us as our husband. This is the essence of salvation that was set long ago in the garden of Eden.
It is about authority and nothing else. Through authority sin affects everything and everyone in the world and through authority authority sin is defeated.

Paul is always talking about the spiritual authority and we must be aware of it and not represent his context. ...
Since you're so certain that Paul is addressing "authority" in 1 Timothy, please find the Greek word for "authority" (exousia) in the Greek text. Good luck.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I have read the part about bishops and elders again, can you tell me where specifically you see the possibility that its gender neutral?
With the exception of verse 2, the pronouns in that passage are neuter, not male.