Baptism and holy spirit

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hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues....

It should be clear that God wants you to speak in tongues. (1)

How do you think "If the Spirit intends for me to speak in tongues, I will do so"? How do you think you will do so? It will just "happen"? How? Do you believe that God will possess you?


Speaking in tongues is not "babbling". It is you speaking a language you do not know. You move your mouth, utilize your vocal cords. The words come from God. (2)


It is absolutely not true that if you do not speak in tongues you do not have the Holy Spirit.


THAT you speak is indeed up to you.
WHAT you speak is up to God
. (3)


(1) But, not everyone DOES. Paul says this, plainly. It's like saying, "I would that you all could program a computer..." but not everyone has the ability... even with diligent longing and study.

(2) There is NO scriptural evidence that tongues are to be "accessed" or "activated" in that way. If I open my mouth and start babbling, it is simply that. Babbling. I would know if the Spirit was giving me "words" to say.

(3) Sorry, brother.... I disagree completely. I have seen no scriptural indication that IF I begin speaking in tongues, it is totally up to me. If the Spirit decides to grant me the ability to speak in tongues, I imagine I would have the ability to do it or not, but I don't have the ability to "manifest" tongues any more than I have the ability to manifest healing someone's cancer...
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Context of Corinthians is to describe how the church at Corinth was out of order. Paul was not there in person so he wrote to them to get their house in order.
That's correct!

In every case in Corinth Paul was down playing tongues.
That is simply not true, Roger.

Corinthians were over playing tongues to their detriment.
They were not using the manifestations correctly. Paul gave them instruction on how to properly use the manifestations.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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(1) But, not everyone DOES. Paul says this, plainly. It's like saying, "I would that you all could program a computer..." but not everyone has the ability... even with diligent longing and study.
But everyone DOES have the ability to manifest the gift of the holy spirit, and God would like all Christians to speak in tongues.

(2) There is NO scriptural evidence that tongues are to be "accessed" or "activated" in that way. If I open my mouth and start babbling, it is simply that. Babbling. I would know if the Spirit was giving me "words" to say.
If you opened your mouth and began speaking in tongues, it would not be babbling. Tongues is never babbling. If you don't initiate the speaking, you will never speak in tongues. God does not possess people.

(3) Sorry, brother.... I disagree completely. I have seen no scriptural indication that IF I begin speaking in tongues, it is totally up to me. If the Spirit decides to grant me the ability to speak in tongues, I imagine I would have the ability to do it or not, but I don't have the ability to "manifest" tongues any more than I have the ability to manifest healing someone's cancer...
Please go back to my previous post, which you agreed with and thought was logical. Why would Paul give instruction on how to do something if everything was initiated and controlled by God?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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But everyone DOES have the ability to manifest the gift of the holy spirit, and God would like all Christians to speak in tongues.


If you opened your mouth and began speaking in tongues, it would not be babbling. Tongues is never babbling. If you don't initiate the speaking, you will never speak in tongues. God does not possess people.


Please go back to my previous post, which you agreed with and thought was logical. Why would Paul give instruction on how to do something if everything was initiated and controlled by God?
Read what I said. If the Spirit gave me the ability to speak in tongues, I believe I would have control over when I used it. I do NOT believe that I, myself, can "grant" myself the manifestation of tongues. Read the scripture again...... if that was the case, why are you not manifesting the gift of miraculous healing? Why are we ALL not doing that?

In fact, since tongues was the last (least) of the manifestations mentioned, why do the "tongue speakers" try to make such a big deal over it? I don't see ANY of them getting all huffy that we all are not prophets... or teachers. THOSE are even more desirable than tongues.

And your belief that any believer can speak in tongues "at will" directly opposes what this scripture plainly says. You are calling Paul a liar....


27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then [s]miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Context of Corinthians is to describe how the church at Corinth was out of order. Paul was not there in person so he wrote to them to get their house in order.

In every case in Corinth Paul was down playing tongues. Corinthians were over playing tongues to their detriment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
NO he was not and the chapter in 1cor 12, 13, and 14 say contrary to that very point.



1Cor 14:39-40



39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Paul was was instructing on how to properly use the gifts this is why in Chapter 12:1 he says :

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant"

If he was down playing as you suggest then why did he start with I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit,

then tell them to desire them, then end with do not forbid using them.

Context not opinon Paul was intructing them on how to use them he never once said do not speak in tongues , or do not use the gifts of the Holy Spirit at anytime. Paul never said the gifts have ceased. Paul ended his intruction with do not for bid and do everything with order and Discipline. I see nothing in the chapters or in the Bible were Paul or anyone for that matter said oppose as you suggest.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
1Corinthians 12:3
you are so far in error

1 Corinthians 12

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


no where in the bible does it say you are only speaking by the Holy Ghost if you are using tounges

that is a ridiculous conclusion

Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior <- not tounges but true
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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By the way, those who I've been speaking with, who think I've never prayed in the spirit, some of your objections to some things that roger has said - I totally agree with you guys on. Just haven't commented because you seem to be handling it well. But wanted you to know. :)
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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And I've got ALOT to comment on one of hornetguys posts. ALOT!! But I have to shoot back out right now. See you guys later.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
By the way, those who I've been speaking with, who think I've never prayed in the spirit, some of your objections to some things that roger has said - I totally agree with you guys on. Just haven't commented because you seem to be handling it well. But wanted you to know. :)
sis if someone says you havent prayed in the spirit simply because you havent used tounges

they are lying and falsely accusing you

i cant wait till God corrects them if they are even indeed brothers and sisters
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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sis if someone says you havent prayed in the spirit simply because you havent used tounges

they are lying and falsely accusing you

i cant wait till God corrects them if they are even indeed brothers and sisters
No McGee, you can't do that. First, if they are saying something out of just not understanding yet, they aren't lying. To lie is an intentional and willful thing and they aren't doing that. They are really believing what they say is true. I was just getting ready to leave but I'm going to delay it now to comment on something hornetguy said. It most likely won't help the...opposition (not that I like to call them that but it was the only word I could think of) because they aren't ready to hear it yet, but I do think it will help you and maybe hornetguy. I'll find his post to quote and be back with it.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
No McGee, you can't do that. First, if they are saying something out of just not understanding yet, they aren't lying. To lie is an intentional and willful thing and they aren't doing that. They are really believing what they say is true. I was just getting ready to leave but I'm going to delay it now to comment on something hornetguy said. It most likely won't help the...opposition (not that I like to call them that but it was the only word I could think of) because they aren't ready to hear it yet, but I do think it will help you and maybe hornetguy. I'll find his post to quote and be back with it.
sorry....

youre right

it is almost definitely not willfull

:(

i just have had to deal with these types of .... not lies
but false accusations many times
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Read what I said. If the Spirit gave me the ability to speak in tongues, I believe I would have control over when I used it.
I firmly believe that He did give you the ability, and you do have control. I believe you really do not understand what tongues is, or you're afraid of doing it wrong, or somehow dishonoring God if you "did it wrong".

I do NOT believe that I, myself, can "grant" myself the manifestation of tongues.
God granted you the ability when He gave you the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Read the scripture again...... if that was the case, why are you not manifesting the gift of miraculous healing? Why are we ALL not doing that?
All Christians have the ability to minister healing. But it's not something you can do at a whim. It takes revelation from God. Several of the manifestations are that way. We cannot "demand" a word of knowledge, word of wisdom, healing, miracles, etc. But every Christian CAN speak in tongues, interpret, and prophesy at will. Note that I am talking about the manifestation of prophesy, not the gift ministry of a prophet. They are different things.

In fact, since tongues was the last (least) of the manifestations mentioned, why do the "tongue speakers" try to make such a big deal over it?
Tongues is neither the least or the last of the manifestations. 1 Cor 12:28 is simply a list of various gifts and manifestations. They aren't listed in the order of importance. Also, don't forget that Paul stated "I would that ye all spoke in tongues..."

I don't see ANY of them getting all huffy that we all are not prophets... or teachers. THOSE are even more desirable than tongues.
We aren't all teachers or prophets (people with the gift ministry of a prophet (Eph 4:11)). But we can all operate the manifestation of prophesy to "comfort, exhort, and edify" the church (1 Cor 14:3), something we are told to "covet" to do (1 Cor 14:39).

And your belief that any believer can speak in tongues "at will" directly opposes what this scripture plainly says.
In the church, in meetings, not everyone does everything. We all have different roles, different ministries, different strengths that we can use to build up the body of Christ. Do not discard that God wants all Christians to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5), that we are to always be praying in the spirit (Eph 6:18), and that when a Christian speaks in tongues he is magnifying and glorifying God, edifying himself, giving thanks well, etc.

You are calling Paul a liar....
No, I am not. Please do not resort to false accusations, as some others so easily do.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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It could very well be that the Spirit gives tongues to people that really need reassurance.... to shore up their faith. We don't know why the Spirit does what he does...
Here is the post I had so many thoughts on. It will require explaining a...phase I went through.

When I received the Spirit, I experienced the whole goosebumps and waves washing over and through me thing I talked about earlier. Some brothers I talked to didn't know what I was talking about (some did) and had never experienced it. I went through a phase where I was totally convinced that they had not received the Holy Spirit because of this. I remember telling one of them, but if you've never heard the Spirit speak in you, you can't say that you know His voice!

I moved from that error (which is quite a bit of arrogance) into even more error. I became convinced that when the Spirit "spoke" in this way where I had a physical reaction, that He was approving of what I was hearing, agreeing in me at what someone was saying, or telling me: go this way.

Then the strangest thing happened. Every single time I heard a phrase like: Obama isn't going anywhere or, we now have a dictator, just watch, he's not stepping down, or any similar phrase relating to Obama not leaving or allowing a new change of the guard, I would instantly be covered in those goosebumps and those waves washing over me.

And keep in mind, I had NEVER felt this feeling/sensation over my entire life until the day I received the Holy Spirit. So I knew it had to do with God, that was never in question. But I went from thinking it was just the rivers of living water bubbling up inside me, to then thinking any who didn't feel it were unsaved, to then thinking He was telling me about something that would take place in the future.

And so convinced was I that I even posted in here what I believed the Spirit was saying to me and confirming to me over and over and over. And then the day came, years later, when Trump stepped into the office and Obama stepped out. And I had been completely mistaken.

(Actually, I began to suspect that I might be misunderstanding prior to that day of the change of the guard, because of something I read from an old saint I had come to pick up any time I had great sorrows, but it was still, even then, although this dead saint had never steered me wrong, still in the back of my mind that I could have it right.)

I had to completely reevaluate all that I had become so very, very certain of. A small and arrogant error had led to another and another and snowballed, and it had all taken me very far off base.

I came to understand that what I had so arrogantly thought (and claimed at times) was given to me for certain reasons was not for any of the reasons I'd thought - because I'm seeking after God harder than them, because I'm spending hours a day studying and they aren't, because I'm more humble, etc. I came to learn that instead, He had given me this tactile sense of His Presence because I had a weaker faith and was more prone to a discouragement that may have made me turn back to Egypt. And I had thought it was because I was humble, while I was arrogantly pronouncing others to be without the Holy Spirit!!

This whole thing occurred over YEARS. It took YEARS for Him to work even a trace of humility into me!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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NO he was not and the chapter in 1cor 12, 13, and 14 say contrary to that very point.



1Cor 14:39-40



39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

Paul was was instructing on how to properly use the gifts this is why in Chapter 12:1 he says :

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant"

If he was down playing as you suggest then why did he start with I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit,

then tell them to desire them, then end with do not forbid using them.

Context not opinon Paul was intructing them on how to use them he never once said do not speak in tongues , or do not use the gifts of the Holy Spirit at anytime. Paul never said the gifts have ceased. Paul ended his intruction with do not for bid and do everything with order and Discipline. I see nothing in the chapters or in the Bible were Paul or anyone for that matter said oppose as you suggest.
You are correct Paul did not say it. The Holy Spirit Who authored the scripture said it. 1 Cor 13:8 tongues will cease.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

It does not say unknown tongues only tongues. Glossa in the Greek which can mean either the organ of speech or language. In this case it must mean language because I don't see scripture referring to the organ in our mouth.

We both agree that opinion is not context. Paul is teaching them about the gifts and removing the emphasis on tongues and placing it on prophesy. Corinth like todays church is all atwitter over tongues and has abandoned teaching sound doctrine which is done through prophesy.

I still am awaiting the scripture that enjoins us to pray in tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger