Here is Joseph Prince......

Agreed. I have a few morning readings on email too and Destined To Reign is one of them. The forums are sort of same same and I so enjoyed your thread on JP and the grace message so decided to resurrect it with today's devotional. Just can't get enough of hearing about the love and grace of God and those who preach it and teach about it.

Well, as I've said before I have a couple of problems with some of what he teaches, but it is really tough for me to listen to him. If it weren't for his books, I might not have ever spent much time absorbing the wealth of knowledge he possesses. Thank God he is such an excellent author.

If you don't mind me inquiring, what problems do you have with some of his teachings?

Well, the biggest is that he holds to the theory of Penal Atonement. I don't.

And, secondly, I think he gets a bit carried away with having to make every single word in the Bible relate to something else. For instance, if the book said that "they sat at the table", I think he would push that to some divine meaning implied by the fact that they "sat", as opposed to them "reclining" or just "gathering."

He does the same sort of thing with the Hebrew or Greek "numbers" of words. I'm just not all that convinced of all that.
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Now, I an NOT opposed to his supposed "prosperity" teaching, (which he does NOT preach) because he does not vary from the scriptures on that. He does not claim that you will be rich, or that if you happen to wish hard enough (have faith), a new Mercedes will appear in your driveway.

Well, the biggest is that he holds to the theory of Penal Atonement. I don't.

And, secondly, I think he gets a bit carried away with having to make every single word in the Bible relate to something else. For instance, if the book said that "they sat at the table", I think he would push that to some divine meaning implied by the fact that they "sat", as opposed to them "reclining" or just "gathering."

He does the same sort of thing with the Hebrew or Greek "numbers" of words. I'm just not all that convinced of all that.
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Now, I an NOT opposed to his supposed "prosperity" teaching, (which he does NOT preach) because he does not vary from the scriptures on that. He does not claim that you will be rich, or that if you happen to wish hard enough (have faith), a new Mercedes will appear in your driveway.

When you say Penal Atonement, you mean someone suffering to pay for a penalty? Being a means or place of punishment... You mentioned this before but I was not sure exactly how to understand what you meant. It is odd how things we hear all the time are not so easily worded if we try to re explain them.
Even the most basic things I have a hard time re explaining. Just looked up the word "penal" and how it is part of the word penalty. Word studies sure do bring deeper meanings to things we thought we already understood. At least in my case these days when reading the Bible.

I mean that, CERTAINLY, Jesus died in our place, FOR, the penalty due as a consequence of us sinning........... BUT, I cannot, in my wildest imagination, envision an angry God deliberately venting that anger upon His son as punishment. No more than He would do the same to us. God is not about "pay-backs", and getting even. Not the God I worship.

Is it possible that our understanding of God's anger upon sin and insisting on payment for sin is not something we can truly grasp in our minds? I don't think it's about paybacks as much as I see God has some kind of judicial issue that we can't perform to meet. So we needed someone who could.


First of all, I do not think that Jesus just simply "died" in His quest to "destroy the work of the Devil." I think there was a lot more to it. I think that the Bible spoke the truth when it said He BECAME sin. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT THING TO GRASP, I believe. It makes His death different from a death any us us can die. VERY different!

I agree with that as much as I can understand any of this.

I believe He BECAME sin, so that when He died, sin (all sin, forever) had no way out of ALSO dying. But sin stayed dead when His body resurrected... and, likewise, it remains dead to OUR risen life.

I'm a bit confused about what you mean here.


That's one point, but here is the "penal " part.........

I don't think punishment for sin is sitting in God's "kill 'em" box, waiting for Him to selectively pour it out on each of us, one at a time. I believe that consequence of sin exists as a "law" God spoke into existence way back in the Garden... just as surely as the 'law' of gravity existed from the day God created it, and exists today


ok, but that takes out the "personal" part for those apart for Jesus. For believers I see what you are saying, we will suffer consequences for sinning like if we are to lie, we will not be seen as honest before other people and we will suffer the consequences of being treated as a liar, but God does not condemn us or cause people to see us that way, those are normal consequences set in God's plan like when He created gravity. Same as any other issue that is negative. If we over eat, we will get fat... if we jump off a building we will go splat.

Just as gravity is not a law "waiting" to punish us each, individually, should we step off a 100 foot building, so the "law" governing the decreed consequences for sin ALREADY exists, and, WITHOUT JESUS, we have no way around feeling the full impact of it upon our deaths. Nor is the effect of gravity, God "punishing" us for our stupidity..... What happens when we hit the ground is the effect of what God put into motion long, long ago. "If you eat, you will surely die"... NOT, "If you eat, I'll come looking for you, and punish you."

That's it in a nutshell. If I left something unclear, feel free to ask further.

Wow! I didn't expect a book in return. LOL

One point you keep turning to might need some explaining. I do not believe God's "justice" is what we have tried to make it. Justice, in the Bible, seems to be more... returning things to the place and order they were intended to be from the beginning.

I know you resist the idea of "getting even" and "pay backs", but that honestly IS how most of us see it... and, I believe, actually HOPE it is.


I think it takes a faith that although we don't understand how God could want our worship since for us we think someone who wants worship is needy or has some petty complex. When in reality God is God and the very definition of who He is demands our worship and awe. He is so good and so lovely and awesome we don't even grasp His holiness and worthiness in our little minds. Our idea of someone getting worship is not the reality. The angels know the reason to worship a holy God. We do too when the truth beams down on us and we bow down in awe and more than willingly want to worship Him when we were given the revelation of the truth.


Think about it. Jesus preached "Love your enemies" and ultimate peacefulness. YET, look at all the people who seem to absolutely "thrill" at the hope of returning to ride in a massive army with Jesus, slaughtering thousands of fellow human beings with a huge sword... till the blood runs like a river.

I think too Willie that many cringe at verses like that and like in the Psalms when David talks about his enemies and having their teeth grind into the rocks and gravel and having God do some awful thing to them. That's how I feel when I read those verses and because I've seen God loves me it's not a contradiction to know He loves my enemies and wants me to love them too.


I think there is a lot we have to reevaluate before we can make some of the sweeping judgments of certain Scriptures the way we do.

I sure agree with you there!!!

Just take that horseback scene. How is Jesus holding His sword? It's coming out of His mouth. Hardly the way to grip a weapon... BUT, it IS how His words would be spoken to the remaining world. And for what effect, I wonder? To kill them? Or, perhaps to try and convict them yet one more time.

No, I'm not saying I have somehow come up with all the answers, but I DO emphatically state that I see many questions we have made into rather vindictive doctrine, rather than coming up with good answers for. And, though we hate to admit it, much of that stems from us STILL really wanting "those bad people" to PAY! (After all, don't they DESERVE it?)

Ohhh, so very much the total opposite of what Jesus preached and taught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Prince

Prince isn't his original name.

EXPOSING A HERETIC: JOSEPH PRINCE

Joseph Prince, false-grace and the risk of millions falling away - John Burton

Contrasting the Teaching of Joseph Prince | Apologetics Index

I always have a problem with the super-rich claiming to be christians, yet don't follow biblical guidelines that state plainly that such people are blessed by God to GIVE, & don't. Such are like the rich young ruler, who couldn't give his wealth away for the Lord.

And pleeeeze don't say it's a humble thing that these "televangelists" don't talk about their giving, for they all brag openly about their financial success. Most don't give a dime to the poor..... but they will give expensive presents to other rich televangelists.

The list above is only a few of the 6 PAGES on a Google search Joseph Prince false teacher

Hasn't anyone noticed that these guys claim they win souls in the millions, yet Jesus says:

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Prince

Prince isn't his original name.

EXPOSING A HERETIC: JOSEPH PRINCE

Joseph Prince, false-grace and the risk of millions falling away - John Burton

Contrasting the Teaching of Joseph Prince | Apologetics Index

I always have a problem with the super-rich claiming to be christians, yet don't follow biblical guidelines that state plainly that such people are blessed by God to GIVE, & don't. Such are like the rich young ruler, who couldn't give his wealth away for the Lord.

And pleeeeze don't say it's a humble thing that these "televangelists" don't talk about their giving, for they all brag openly about their financial success. Most don't give a dime to the poor..... but they will give expensive presents to other rich televangelists.

The list above is only a few of the 6 PAGES on a Google search Joseph Prince false teacher

Hasn't anyone noticed that these guys claim they win souls in the millions, yet Jesus says:

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

What ya gonna say? Most cult leaders have their followers who'll defend them through thick and thin. That's what I'm seeing with this Prince guy.

Instead of posting a link to the reasons why someone else calls someone a heretic, what is it you have heard and can you address what you heard.

I've been to the pages you posted and they are making sweeping statements about a person that are false. They heard something part way and without proper investigation, falsely accused. I find this a sad state of affairs for people to be in making accusations based on other accusations based on other accusations based on other accusations and so on. Let us not be guilty of this as Christians and brothers and sisters in Christ towards one another.

And I see it as not just this Prince guy, but anyone who is accused of something by another believer. Gossip is a sin., judging someone falsely - false accusation is a sin. And for a good reason. It is very easy to find fault with people and that is always about pride. Pride is something God hates. And as Christians we should be above such things or at least making it our business to be above such things. But sadly we are not and instead jump on the bandwagon and tear one another down.

General statements and words about someone else are powerful. The Bible says a lot about our words and our intentions. The power of life and death is in the tongue.... that is an awesome statement for the Bible to make. The sin of gossip is as bad as the sin of witchcraft but how many of us take that seriously? We just don't realize how great that little member is and yet we still don't try to curtail our lips from speaking slander.

And I see it as not just this Prince guy, but anyone who is accused of something by another believer. Gossip is a sin., judging someone falsely - false accusation is a sin. And for a good reason. It is very easy to find fault with people and that is always about pride. Pride is something God hates. And as Christians we should be above such things or at least making it our business to be above such things. But sadly we are not and instead jump on the bandwagon and tear one another down.

General statements and words about someone else are powerful. The Bible says a lot about our words and our intentions. The power of life and death is in the tongue.... that is an awesome statement for the Bible to make. The sin of gossip is as bad as the sin of witchcraft but how many of us take that seriously? We just don't realize how great that little member is and yet we still don't try to curtail our lips from speaking slander.

Speaking the truth is not gossip. Do a behavioral study on cults, and cult leaders and you will see the similarities of devotion between Prince and his followers just the type you are exhibiting here...defend at all cost...that type of devotion should be reserved for Jesus...not our idols.

Well, since I have stated pretty plainly, several times, I do NOT idolize JP. In fact I completely disagree with him on several things.

But that does not make me fearful of admitting he is a brilliant Bible Scholar. So, I have to conclude that your prejudices might be clouding your judgment.

I addressed Lynn and other of Prince faithful followers, you're free to disassociate from Prince and so is Lynn but my statement still stands regarding cult followers following their leader.