Here is Joseph Prince......
- Thread starter Willie-T
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Well, the biggest is that he holds to the theory of Penal Atonement. I don't.
And, secondly, I think he gets a bit carried away with having to make every single word in the Bible relate to something else. For instance, if the book said that "they sat at the table", I think he would push that to some divine meaning implied by the fact that they "sat", as opposed to them "reclining" or just "gathering."
He does the same sort of thing with the Hebrew or Greek "numbers" of words. I'm just not all that convinced of all that.
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Now, I an NOT opposed to his supposed "prosperity" teaching, (which he does NOT preach) because he does not vary from the scriptures on that. He does not claim that you will be rich, or that if you happen to wish hard enough (have faith), a new Mercedes will appear in your driveway.
And, secondly, I think he gets a bit carried away with having to make every single word in the Bible relate to something else. For instance, if the book said that "they sat at the table", I think he would push that to some divine meaning implied by the fact that they "sat", as opposed to them "reclining" or just "gathering."
He does the same sort of thing with the Hebrew or Greek "numbers" of words. I'm just not all that convinced of all that.
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Now, I an NOT opposed to his supposed "prosperity" teaching, (which he does NOT preach) because he does not vary from the scriptures on that. He does not claim that you will be rich, or that if you happen to wish hard enough (have faith), a new Mercedes will appear in your driveway.
L
It is a real shame about the whole over board 'prosperity' teaching issue so many ascribe to JP and many others who are just plain blessed by God because they believe. There is a guy on CC who to this day can't accept the fact God blessed me with finances in my bank account and made something from nothing.
I don't ascribe to praying for a Mercedes appearing in the driveway either (or gold for that matter) But do believe God will met our needs according to His riches in Christ Jesus. Have seen time and time again how God prospers for a purpose. Just like blessed to be a blessing is a fact in how He works. God's resources are not limited like ours are. He isn't limited by poor countries or political systems. The only limit to God's provisions to us is our faith in His desire to do so. I've limited Him many times by my unbelief.
L
When you say Penal Atonement, you mean someone suffering to pay for a penalty? Being a means or place of punishment... You mentioned this before but I was not sure exactly how to understand what you meant. It is odd how things we hear all the time are not so easily worded if we try to re explain them.
Even the most basic things I have a hard time re explaining. Just looked up the word "penal" and how it is part of the word penalty. Word studies sure do bring deeper meanings to things we thought we already understood. At least in my case these days when reading the Bible.
I mean that, CERTAINLY, Jesus died in our place, FOR, the penalty due as a consequence of us sinning........... BUT, I cannot, in my wildest imagination, envision an angry God deliberately venting that anger upon His son as punishment. No more than He would do the same to us. God is not about "pay-backs", and getting even. Not the God I worship.
First of all, I do not think that Jesus just simply "died" in His quest to "destroy the work of the Devil." I think there was a lot more to it. I think that the Bible spoke the truth when it said He BECAME sin. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT THING TO GRASP, I believe. It makes His death different from a death any us us can die. VERY different!
I believe He BECAME sin, so that when He died, sin (all sin, forever) had no way out of ALSO dying. But sin stayed dead when His body resurrected... and, likewise, it remains dead to OUR risen life.
That's one point, but here is the "penal " part.........
I don't think punishment for sin is sitting in God's "kill 'em" box, waiting for Him to selectively pour it out on each of us, one at a time. I believe that consequence of sin exists as a "law" God spoke into existence way back in the Garden... just as surely as the 'law' of gravity existed from the day God created it, and exists today.
Just as gravity is not a law "waiting" to punish us each, individually, should we step off a 100 foot building, so the "law" governing the decreed consequences for sin ALREADY exists, and, WITHOUT JESUS, we have no way around feeling the full impact of it upon our deaths. Nor is the effect of gravity, God "punishing" us for our stupidity..... What happens when we hit the ground is the effect of what God put into motion long, long ago. "If you eat, you will surely die"... NOT, "If you eat, I'll come looking for you, and punish you."
That's it in a nutshell. If I left something unclear, feel free to ask further.
First of all, I do not think that Jesus just simply "died" in His quest to "destroy the work of the Devil." I think there was a lot more to it. I think that the Bible spoke the truth when it said He BECAME sin. THAT'S AN IMPORTANT THING TO GRASP, I believe. It makes His death different from a death any us us can die. VERY different!
I believe He BECAME sin, so that when He died, sin (all sin, forever) had no way out of ALSO dying. But sin stayed dead when His body resurrected... and, likewise, it remains dead to OUR risen life.
That's one point, but here is the "penal " part.........
I don't think punishment for sin is sitting in God's "kill 'em" box, waiting for Him to selectively pour it out on each of us, one at a time. I believe that consequence of sin exists as a "law" God spoke into existence way back in the Garden... just as surely as the 'law' of gravity existed from the day God created it, and exists today.
Just as gravity is not a law "waiting" to punish us each, individually, should we step off a 100 foot building, so the "law" governing the decreed consequences for sin ALREADY exists, and, WITHOUT JESUS, we have no way around feeling the full impact of it upon our deaths. Nor is the effect of gravity, God "punishing" us for our stupidity..... What happens when we hit the ground is the effect of what God put into motion long, long ago. "If you eat, you will surely die"... NOT, "If you eat, I'll come looking for you, and punish you."
That's it in a nutshell. If I left something unclear, feel free to ask further.
L
So, I'm not sure if I'm grasping what you are saying. God's vengeance/anger/justice/ etc.. is not personal but against the sin principal? If so how come anyone has to pay for anyone's personal sin. And then how can we each have a personal relationship with God? it sure is confusing. The whole imputation issue... Our sins imputed on Christ... His righteousness imputed on us... All because Adam's sin was imputed to us.,we did nothing but be born...and we got born into Adam's family.
Wow! I didn't expect a book in return. LOL
One point you keep turning to might need some explaining. I do not believe God's "justice" is what we have tried to make it. Justice, in the Bible, seems to be more... returning things to the place and order they were intended to be from the beginning.
I know you resist the idea of "getting even" and "pay backs", but that honestly IS how most of us see it... and, I believe, actually HOPE it is.
Think about it. Jesus preached "Love your enemies" and ultimate peacefulness. YET, look at all the people who seem to absolutely "thrill" at the hope of returning to ride in a massive army with Jesus, slaughtering thousands of fellow human beings with a huge sword... till the blood runs like a river.
I think there is a lot we have to reevaluate before we can make some of the sweeping judgments of certain Scriptures the way we do.
Just take that horseback scene. How is Jesus holding His sword? It's coming out of His mouth. Hardly the way to grip a weapon... BUT, it IS how His words would be spoken to the remaining world. And for what effect, I wonder? To kill them? Or, perhaps to try and convict them yet one more time.
No, I'm not saying I have somehow come up with all the answers, but I DO emphatically state that I see many questions we have made into rather vindictive doctrine, rather than coming up with good answers for. And, though we hate to admit it, much of that stems from us STILL really wanting "those bad people" to PAY! (After all, don't they DESERVE it?)
Ohhh, so very much the total opposite of what Jesus preached and taught.
One point you keep turning to might need some explaining. I do not believe God's "justice" is what we have tried to make it. Justice, in the Bible, seems to be more... returning things to the place and order they were intended to be from the beginning.
I know you resist the idea of "getting even" and "pay backs", but that honestly IS how most of us see it... and, I believe, actually HOPE it is.
Think about it. Jesus preached "Love your enemies" and ultimate peacefulness. YET, look at all the people who seem to absolutely "thrill" at the hope of returning to ride in a massive army with Jesus, slaughtering thousands of fellow human beings with a huge sword... till the blood runs like a river.
I think there is a lot we have to reevaluate before we can make some of the sweeping judgments of certain Scriptures the way we do.
Just take that horseback scene. How is Jesus holding His sword? It's coming out of His mouth. Hardly the way to grip a weapon... BUT, it IS how His words would be spoken to the remaining world. And for what effect, I wonder? To kill them? Or, perhaps to try and convict them yet one more time.
No, I'm not saying I have somehow come up with all the answers, but I DO emphatically state that I see many questions we have made into rather vindictive doctrine, rather than coming up with good answers for. And, though we hate to admit it, much of that stems from us STILL really wanting "those bad people" to PAY! (After all, don't they DESERVE it?)
Ohhh, so very much the total opposite of what Jesus preached and taught.
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L
I agree with you Willie, some people do see it that way and are like you describe seeking revenge. But some are appalled at the very idea of us calling for anyone to suffer the judgment of God when we see all we have been forgiven for because of Jesus. We know the Bible says if we have seen Jesus we have seen the Father. So I'm thinking like you said here, there is much we don't know but there is also much we do know. So seeing Jesus is our ultimate goal in life. To behold Him and find these answers., that it will take a life time of learning and in the mean time trusting He loves us and wants us to love others the same way. I don't understand all of His ways and how His holiness and justice is to be worked out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Prince
Prince isn't his original name.
EXPOSING A HERETIC: JOSEPH PRINCE
Joseph Prince, false-grace and the risk of millions falling away - John Burton
Contrasting the Teaching of Joseph Prince | Apologetics Index
I always have a problem with the super-rich claiming to be christians, yet don't follow biblical guidelines that state plainly that such people are blessed by God to GIVE, & don't. Such are like the rich young ruler, who couldn't give his wealth away for the Lord.
And pleeeeze don't say it's a humble thing that these "televangelists" don't talk about their giving, for they all brag openly about their financial success. Most don't give a dime to the poor..... but they will give expensive presents to other rich televangelists.
The list above is only a few of the 6 PAGES on a Google search Joseph Prince false teacher
Hasn't anyone noticed that these guys claim they win souls in the millions, yet Jesus says:
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Prince isn't his original name.
EXPOSING A HERETIC: JOSEPH PRINCE
Joseph Prince, false-grace and the risk of millions falling away - John Burton
Contrasting the Teaching of Joseph Prince | Apologetics Index
I always have a problem with the super-rich claiming to be christians, yet don't follow biblical guidelines that state plainly that such people are blessed by God to GIVE, & don't. Such are like the rich young ruler, who couldn't give his wealth away for the Lord.
And pleeeeze don't say it's a humble thing that these "televangelists" don't talk about their giving, for they all brag openly about their financial success. Most don't give a dime to the poor..... but they will give expensive presents to other rich televangelists.
The list above is only a few of the 6 PAGES on a Google search Joseph Prince false teacher
Hasn't anyone noticed that these guys claim they win souls in the millions, yet Jesus says:
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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L
Check out the first page of this thread and you will see the reason it was started was to address each of these issues instead of making sweeping judgments against for instance...Joseph Prince. Each accusation will be addressed so you can find the truth and not someones version of what they heard or read someone said is the truth. But this thread could be about anyone. Instead of posting a link to the reasons why someone else calls someone a heretic, what is it you have heard and can you address what you heard.
I've been to the pages you posted and they are making sweeping statements about a person that are false. They heard something part way and without proper investigation, falsely accused. I find this a sad state of affairs for people to be in making accusations based on other accusations based on other accusations based on other accusations and so on. Let us not be guilty of this as Christians and brothers and sisters in Christ towards one another.
L
And I see it as not just this Prince guy, but anyone who is accused of something by another believer. Gossip is a sin., judging someone falsely - false accusation is a sin. And for a good reason. It is very easy to find fault with people and that is always about pride. Pride is something God hates. And as Christians we should be above such things or at least making it our business to be above such things. But sadly we are not and instead jump on the bandwagon and tear one another down.
General statements and words about someone else are powerful. The Bible says a lot about our words and our intentions. The power of life and death is in the tongue.... that is an awesome statement for the Bible to make. The sin of gossip is as bad as the sin of witchcraft but how many of us take that seriously? We just don't realize how great that little member is and yet we still don't try to curtail our lips from speaking slander.
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What I have heard...... let's see now..... it might be what I HAVEN'T heard..... I haven't heard:
repentance, obedience, conviction.
What do I hear? That God will NEVER judge us for present unforgiven, unrepentant sin. That God would be unholy to judge us after Jesus took all our sins upon himself.
Then there's hypergrace, WOF, etc.
I also hear arrogance & pride in his speaking. He's full of himself, not the Spirit.
You mean like the way you slander me accusing me of slandering others with my posts?
If what I'm doing is so bad, why are you doing the same thing?
If I were to speak good of a heretic, would that make things alright?
The Bible says you will know these guys by their fruits.
The world says "birds of a feather flock together" This is also true.
Investigate who he runs with..... other super rich superstars in televangelism.
If this guy is spiritual how come he can't discern who he runs with? Would YOU take money from a heretical fraud? I give you the benefit of the doubt & say no..... BUT HE DOES.
Guys like this claim to save millions, but only make their proselytes a two-fold child of Hell than themselves.
repentance, obedience, conviction.
What do I hear? That God will NEVER judge us for present unforgiven, unrepentant sin. That God would be unholy to judge us after Jesus took all our sins upon himself.
Then there's hypergrace, WOF, etc.
I also hear arrogance & pride in his speaking. He's full of himself, not the Spirit.
You mean like the way you slander me accusing me of slandering others with my posts?
If what I'm doing is so bad, why are you doing the same thing?
If I were to speak good of a heretic, would that make things alright?
The Bible says you will know these guys by their fruits.
The world says "birds of a feather flock together" This is also true.
Investigate who he runs with..... other super rich superstars in televangelism.
If this guy is spiritual how come he can't discern who he runs with? Would YOU take money from a heretical fraud? I give you the benefit of the doubt & say no..... BUT HE DOES.
Guys like this claim to save millions, but only make their proselytes a two-fold child of Hell than themselves.
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Remember this?
1 Timothy 2:9 (KJV) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1 Timothy 2:9 (NLT) And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
How can these so-called preachers teach this doctrine when THEY THEMSELVES BREAK IT?
They teach that carnal success equals spiritual success. They place emphasis on looking victorious than being it.
They are indeed victorious..... over their congregations, & the poor souls that give them their grocery money for a blessing.
1 Timothy 2:9 (KJV) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1 Timothy 2:9 (NLT) And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.
How can these so-called preachers teach this doctrine when THEY THEMSELVES BREAK IT?
They teach that carnal success equals spiritual success. They place emphasis on looking victorious than being it.
They are indeed victorious..... over their congregations, & the poor souls that give them their grocery money for a blessing.
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Speaking the truth is not gossip. Do a behavioral study on cults, and cult leaders and you will see the similarities of devotion between Prince and his followers just the type you are exhibiting here...defend at all cost...that type of devotion should be reserved for Jesus...not our idols.
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Well, since I have stated pretty plainly, several times, I do NOT idolize JP. In fact I completely disagree with him on several things.
But that does not make me fearful of admitting he is a brilliant Bible Scholar. So, I have to conclude that your prejudices might be clouding your judgment.
But that does not make me fearful of admitting he is a brilliant Bible Scholar. So, I have to conclude that your prejudices might be clouding your judgment.
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I have only met one person that might fit that category with regards to JP. That's hardly a cult. (A large church does not make a "cult.") And though you may be able to make "solid declarations" based upon the conclusions of others, I can only go by what I have personally seen with my own eyes.
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