Pre trib Rapture.

Hi all. I believe in the pretrib rapture for many biblical reasons but a few of my friends are changing their minds. Their reason to start questioning pretrib is not because of scripture but because they say why should we be exempt from persecution. Once they hold to that premise then they begin trying to find scripture for this view. I first respond that we will not necessarily be exempt from persecution and that if the Lord tarries we will have probably will be persecuted for our faith. I believe the tribulation is not for the church but to bring Israel to the Messiah. I was wondering if my fellow Christians out their could give me a concise biblical response to my friends who are leaving the biblical view of the rapture.

It's not just a matter of persecution , For get that. You have to address the order of events outlined by Christ. In All His teaches. 2nd Thess 2 and These words are clear.


Mark 13 :

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, "after" that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately "after" the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


If you want to talk about it some time, I'll do that in the chat rooms.

If the tribulation is for the church, then why did John the revelator see himself in the tribulation?

Rev. 1:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

As much as i wish the pre-tribulation belief was correct, I can't see any merit it in it based on scriptures provided above and other places. It would be nice if post tribbers were wrong but it doesn't appear to be that way

Hi there Equuas, here are some Scriptures that teach a pre-trib. Rapture:

John 10:1-6, Revelation 4:1-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

A biblical response that I can give you for your friends who are beginning to leave the Pretrib. Rapture belief is this.

Let them know exactly what the time of Jacob's trouble is for. When we read Jeremiah 30, we see that the time of Jacob's trouble is to bring unbelieving Israel into correction:

Jeremiah 30:1-11 KJV
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord , saying, [2] Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. [3] For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord , that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord : and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. [4] And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. [5] For thus saith the Lord ; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. [6] Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? [7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. [10] Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord ; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. [11] For I am with thee, saith the Lord , to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.


So we know that this future time period is not for the church (the Body of Christ), but rather it is for Israel (Jacob). Israel is another name for Jacob. God changes Jacob's name to Israel in Gen. 32:28.


Genesis 32:28 KJV
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.


Also what you could mention to them in addition Equuas is that the true Biblical rapture is a purifying hope (1 John 3:3).

If the rapture happens after the time of Jacob's trouble, then we would be able to approximate Christ's return.

Think about it. We would only have two possibilities. It is either 3.5 years or it is about 7 years. So if we knew approximately when Christ could come back, well then that wouldn't really motivate us to live a holy life, now would it?

But if our Lord Jesus Christ could come and catch us away at any moment on any day, now that would motivate us to purify our lives and to live and walk more holy. That is why the true Biblical Rapture is pre-trib.

Also we are exhorted to look for the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour. See Titus 2:13.

We are not exhorted to look for the appearing of the New World Order. And we are not told to look for the time of Jacob's trouble. But again, we are exhorted to look for the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Also we are encouraged and exhorted to love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:


2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

My question is how do you love the Lord's appearing if you are constantly worried about the new world order, and worried about having to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and worried about taking the mark of the beast?

These are some good questions to ask your friends. Since they are starting to give up on the Biblical doctrine of the Pre-trib. Rapture.

Also I recommend that you view some of Bryan Denlinger's video sermons which he did on the Pre-trib. Rapture. And to forward and share them with your friends. Well Equuas; I hope this helped. Blessings!

So post tribes believes that Jesus raptures the church when? After or during the trib?

Immediately after

The post tribbers believe that the rapture will happen immediately after the tribulation. So they basically believe that the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event.

And of course they are not the same event. The Rapture (Translation) and the Second Coming are two separate events.

This is where I get that understanding from....could you please point out why you believe I am in error?

Matthew 24: 29-31

"
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



[SUP]30 [/SUP]And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



[SUP]31[/SUP]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I see but Zechariah 4:14 says that Jesus will come with all the saints and God himself to destroy the gentile armies that encamp around Jerusalem. It seems to me that we will already be with Christ and we come back with him to set up the kingdom. That sounds like 2 different events there. Then Paul says that were Gonna meet Christ in the air...not when he plants his feet on mt. of olives. Cuz once Christ lands the light of the world changes and there's physical changes in the earth. But no earthly changes are associated with meeting Christ in the air...no physical changes or nothing except our bodies. The rapture and 2nd advent are truly 2 different events.

If you ever notice Paul always refer to the elect as Jews that believe Christ is Gods son. I believe its in romans chapter 8-12
This gathering u are talking about is the gathering of all Jews from gentile nations into the promise land. 1948 was not the gathering because many Jews still live in america.

Did you mean another verse?

Zechariah 4:14:

"Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Nobody said we wouldn't meet the Lord in the air either, I'm not sure where your getting that from...Even the verse I quoted said They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven in Power and Great Glory.

I really would like to understand this pre-trib thing but I've tried and I don't see it anywhere.

Amen brother. Good synopsis and explanation. Those are very good points you brought up in defending the Biblical doctrine of the Pre-trib. Rapture.

The problem you have, of course dear brother, is you don't have a single verse that tells you they are different events. Instead, everything in the Word suggests ONE return of Christ and places the time at the 7th trumpet, which is "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days" and BEFORE the wrath of God of the 7 bowls.

The Pre-Trib Rapture view is NOT taught in the Bible and is an invention of man, or worse. This view flies in the face of all the teachings of Jesus, Paul and the disciples. But you will never be convinced of this until you find yourself in the middle of the Tribulation. Then you will come around.

How do these verses fit in with that? And Which exact verses are you referring to?

Galatians 3:28-29

"
[SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."



I always thought this is who the elect are....and if we are not the elect because we are not Jews....we are in a very dangerous position right now.

Romans 11:5-7

"Romans 11:5-7
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. "

I don't see how someone can get meeting Christ in the air confused with coming back with Christ at Armageddon.
You are right tho...Christ only comes back once...when he smites the gentile armies. Christ doesn't come back to earth till then but he appears in the heavens before then to call the saints back. I have never classified the 2nd advent as the rapture. What I'm staying is we meet Christ in the air as Paul said then we come back with him at the 2nd advent which is his true and eternal coming. And after all rebellion is put down God will be all n all n new Jerusalem will come from the sky.

Sorry I meant Zechariah 14:4....thanks for calling me...I'm glad u opened ur bible. But the 14th chapter talks about the second advent and how the saints are going to be coming back with jesus

I never meant this thread to be a post trib / pre trib argument. I was looking for a concise biblical explanation of the pre trib rapture to be able to discuss with my friends who are going on emotion rather than the bible. Thankyou to Chosenbyhim

I apologize if I derailed....I'm just curious on the pre-trib myself....I would also expect some of your friends may be looking at scripture the same way I am so maybe that will at least help understand their point of view better. God Bless

Thanks Donkeyfish07